asked the Minister for Industry and Commerce if he will state, with reference to the Fresh Meat (Maximum Prices) Order, 1947: (a) with whom consultations were held and on what basis such Order was made; (b) why he has put all meat, regardless of quality, into one grade; (c) whether he is satisfied that the special category of animal of high quality, suitable for the Dublin trade, can be supplied at the fixed price, without affecting the price to the producer; (d) what consideration has been given to the winter producer of fat stock when the cost of production is at its maximum in the stall; (e) whether he intends to graduate prices over a period to meet increased cost of production in the winter and spring period; (f) whether a cost-of-living subsidy has been considered; and (g) if he will make a statement on its operation and administration.

The maximum retail prices for fresh meat prescribed by the Fresh Meat (Maximum Prices) Order, 1947, are related to the average market prices for prime cattle and sheep in October, 1947, due allowance being made for victuallers' costs and profit. The Dublin Master Victuallers' Association has had regular discussions with officers of my Department during the past number of years and, accordingly, I was aware of the views of the victuallers concerning trade matters generally when the Order in question was being made.

It would not be feasible to provide different maximum prices for the various qualities of meat without an elaborate system of grading. The retail prices prescribed in the Order relate to prime quality meat and, consequently, meat of secondary quality should be available at somewhat lower prices.

Since the current retail prices of meat are related to market prices for prime animals, it is clear that the statutory control of meat prices should not, at the present stage, result in a reduction in the price realised by producers of prime animals. Meat prices, however, constitute only one of a number of factors which influence the trend of market prices. I am aware that market prices show seasonal fluctuations and I will be prepared to take this factor into consideration in the administration of the Order.

The practicability of an arrangement for subsidising the price of meat has been under examination for some time, but I am not in a position to make any statement on the matter at present or to indicate if a subsidy will be paid.

Is the Minister satisfied that his control will not affect the primary producer or does he intend that it should affect the primary producer?

I have stated that the prices have been fixed upon the basis of the market price for prime animals during October. There is no reason, therefore, that it should be assumed that the operation of these prices will affect marketeers.

Will the Minister say what he proposes to do in December and, particularly, after Christmas, in January and February, when the normal seasonal increases occur? Is the Minister taking into account the cost of producing beef in the stall in the winter season? Who has been consulted on this matter and has he any appreciation of what he is attempting to do and the repercussions it may have on production, and does not he feel that the man who is prepared to winter feed at a very high cost is at least entitled to get a substantially higher price than the man who is turning cattle off grass? I am not against control, but I want to ensure that production is kept up and that the people engaged in primary production will at least secure margins.

The Deputy is making a speech.

Is the Minister aware——

That does not improve it.

Is the Minister aware, in the case of sheep, for instance, that the people who finish sheep in the winter season have bought them already at high prices? If they are going to pay money for dear food to finish those animals, they must get a fair margin. Does the Minister agree with me that when he proposes something like this, it ought not to be sprung on them immediately? The Minister must agree——

The Deputy is making a speech.

——that the farmer is entitled to make some preparation.

Supplementary questions must be brief.

The market prices of cattle are determined by other factors than the operations of the victuallers. The prices which have been fixed by me relate to the market prices for cattle. If the market prices fluctuate, the maximum prices fixed by me will have to be considered also. In the case of sheep, however, the market price is determined solely by the competition between the victuallers themselves for the limited supply and I do not suppose there is any Deputy here who will contend that the sky should be the limit in circumstances of that kind.

Question No. 2.

Because of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I intend, with your permission, to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

Is the Minister aware that the reduction of 2d. per pound makes the price they can charge less than what the victuallers are at present paying per pound for mutton in Dublin? Also, why did the Minister tell the victuallers yesterday to reduce the prices to the farmers?

I did not tell the victuallers that and I would like to make it clear that when I was referring to the market prices in my discussion with the victuallers I made the remark quoted only in relation to sheep. The price of sheep has been driven up by competition between the victuallers and it is in their own power to prevent further increases which would make it unprofitable for them to operate at the prices now fixed. So far as cattle are concerned, however, I made no such observation as was attributed to me and it is quite clear that cattle prices. are not determined solely by the operations of the victuallers.

Question No. 2.

The price of sheep is not driven up by the butchers.

There is nobody else buying sheep.

Yes there is. Is the Minister aware that all the farmers have been buying sheep to put on their land so that they will have crops next year?

They are not fat sheep.

They are buying all the sheep.

Not fat sheep.

Belgian buyers are buying our cattle outside the cattle market.

They are not buying this cattle. The Deputy knows nothing about it.

Belgian buyers, with Government cheque books, are competing against the Dublin butchers.

That is not true.

I can give proof of it.

You can.