The House will recollect that when Deputy Lindsay was speaking on this motion on 26th February, 1958, certain allegations were made by him—serious allegations—to which, perhaps, I had better refer. I quote from column 771 of Volume 165 of the Official Report:—

I invite the Minister now to tell the House and the country whether he has any knowledge of whether in any year from 1954 to 1956, or even up to 1957, there seemed either not taken into account, or missing from the stores of Gaeltarra Éireann, thousands of yards of tweed, valued at anything from £10,000 to £20,000, of which the Minister has no record and cannot say where it is, how it went, who took it, or whether it was from wrong accounting, wrong auditing or a wrong assessment from the yields in wool. It is for that kind of thing I ask the inquiry.

That is, the inquiry he asked for in the motion before the House. Further, in the same column, the Deputy went on to say:

Lest it be alleged by the Minister that this motion of mine is in any way directed towards one person, I now want to tell him that I am about to give him information generally across the floor of this House that involves possibly the most consistent, most damning, and most longstanding fraud, certainly unilateral fraud, and a fraud which has been made possible through either of two things, negligence on the part of the staff of Gaeltarra Éireann, on the one hand, or conspiracy and fraud by some member or members of the staff of Gaeltarra Éireann, on the other hand.

The Deputy then produced two sheets of paper and went on to suggest a way whereby these "consistent, most damning and most longstanding frauds" were carried out:

How is this done? If anybody wants to make money quickly and if he has any knowledge of the wool trade and, with the full realisation that he has careless and willing hands to help him in Gaeltarra Éireann, one can get into it straight away. This is how it is done. You weigh 10,000 lb. of second-rate Irish wool and, having weighted it, you fill your consignment docket or invoice and make it out, not as second-rate Irish wool but as superwhite New Zealand greasy. In the weight column, you do not fill in 10,000 lb. but you fill in any figure up to 15,000 lb. The wool is transferred by someone in the public haulage companies and it reaches Gaeltarra Éireann depots either in Dublin or Donegal, where it is not checked, either carelessly or deliberately.

Of course, through no fault of the accountancy branch of Gaeltarra Éireann, the accounts branch pay on these fradulent invoices the rate obtainable for the better class wool and the higher weight. On that alone, the Minister has a serious responsibility in respect of the criminal code in this country, but on that alone he should hold an inquiry at once and put the public mind at ease. This is not a question of what the Minister thinks, what I think or what any Deputy thinks. These are figures, some of which have been proved already, some of which are capable of being proved beyond any shadow of doubt.

In view of these specific charges of a criminal nature—conspiracy, fraud, going on, as was alleged, over a very long period—when the Deputy finished that night I directed the officials in my Department to impound all the documents of Gaeltarra Éireann and on the 5th March, 1958, I moved in this House that further discussion would stop in this matter and that the Garda would be called in by the Minister for Justice to investigate the charges of fraud and conspiracy made by the Deputy in this motion and in the debate to which I have referred.

The Garda came in on 1st March, 1958 to investigate these allegations and intensive inquiries were made by them over a period of nine months, covering all the purchases of wool made by Gaeltarra Éireann from Messrs. Campbell and Walker from 1952 to 1958. As a result of the investigations by the Garda, certain charges were brought before our courts and dealt with by the court concerned. After, I understand, a long hearing of some 15 or 20 days, after investigating the evidence in respect of these charges which were brought, informations were refused.

Before dealing with that, I should deal with the first point—that is the allegation by Deputy Lindsay made on this motion that there was, I think it was, 20,000 yards of tweed missing from Gaeltarra Éireann and unaccounted for. I think he referred, speaking in connection with the same matter elsewhere, to some miles of tweed being missing from Gaeltarra Éireann. I want to inform the House that these allegations were fully investigated, not alone by the accounting officer concerned but by the Comptroller and Auditor General and that their evidence has been given before the Public Accounts Committee. I want to put on the records of this House that the explanations given by the Accounting Officer have been fully accepted by the Comptroller and Auditor General and that this evidence has already been given to the Committee of Public Accounts.

No doubt, in due course, when the Committee of Public Accounts produce their report, they will say what they think of this matter. The evidence given in respect of this alleged 20,000 yards of tweed, which, incidentally, referred to an amount alleged to be missing out of the total stock of tweed going over a period of three years, was that it is accounted for by the fact that on 75 yard lengths of tweed it is a practice in the trade to allow for an extra yard and that that alone, on the figures involved, would indicate that 16,000 yards of the alleged 20,000, was accounted for. The other amount alleged to be missing, on the figure that was given, was accounted for by patterns which had been sent out to the trade by Gaeltarra Éireann and these figures were accepted and have been accepted by the Comptroller and Auditor General. That is as far as the allegation about the missing tweed is concerned.

The other allegations made by the Deputy caused a very considerable expenditure of public time and money, the time of the Garda and others in investigating the charges made here. They were charges of alleged most consistent, most damning and most long-standing fraud, certainly unilateral fraud and fraud made possible by two things, negligence and conspiracy to defraud by some members of the staff. When the Deputy made these charges, he said or alleged that he had certain information which he would convey to the Garda. It would appear, however, from subsequent events at the trial, that when he made these charges he did not have documents which he alleged he subsequently got anonymously by post and documents which it transpires now were stolen from the companies concerned.

Is the Minister making an allegation now that they were stolen by me?

I shall make my case if the Deputy will listen to it. I want to point out to the House that when the Deputy made these statements, according to sworn evidence given to the Court and according to his own statement as I understand it, he did not have some alleged records that it transpired were stolen at some stage from the people to whom they belonged. Not having those records to go on according to his own statement, he still thought fit to make these charges here in this House.

The most fantastic thing about this whole business is that after all the close scrutiny by the Garda over all the years, the only alleged irregularities, that they could find at all events, or that they thought should be investigated by the Court, were in the years 1955-56 when the Deputy himself and Deputy Blowick were the responsible political heads for the Department concerned. It seems to me that I am placed here in the rather fantastic situation that public time, money and expense have been wasted in investigating the administration of this Department during the Deputy's own time and the time of his predecessor. At all events, I want to put on the records of this House, in fairness to the people concerned, considering all the general slander that has been cast within the protected walls of this House on everybody associated with Gaeltarra Éireann and on people and firms outside Gaeltarra Éireann, that the Garda did not discover any evidence whatsoever of fraud in respect of the Civil Servants who were working in Gaeltarra Éireann. Although under a cloud ever since that time until this recent case was over, they at least have the satisfaction of knowing that, after thorough investigation, there was no evidence of fraud to be brought against them even in Deputy Lindsay's time, before it or since.

Making allegations of this kind here is all well and good. I wonder if the Deputy has realised the effect of what I call these outrageous charges on the business of Gaeltarra Éireann and on the firms which he pilloried here in this House. I wonder if he realises what effect this kind of conduct in this House can have generally on people outside who are not here to answer for themselves. Will the business community as a whole tolerate a situation in which they can be slandered and lambasted inside the privileged walls of this House, irrespective of the consequences that it is going to have on them, a situation as a result of which they may be held up to hatred, ridicule and contempt of all and sundry on the baseless allegations of the Deputy? There evidently was no evidence to sustain the allegations.

The only result of this whole business is first, a waste of a tremendous amount of public and Garda time. Secondly, a reputable firm has been slandered and put to costs which I understand are estimated to run to about £7,000 or £8,000. Thirdly, an unfortunate man lost his life up in Donegal, leaving a widow and family. Fourthly, irreparable damage has been done to the business of Gaeltarra Éireann. Fifthly, irreparable damage has been done to, and a cloud left over, conscientious civil servants who for many years have served under different Governments in this State.

This has been the result of these allegations which as far as the alleged missing tweed is concerned, have ended in a mare's nest and, which as far as the matter before the Court is concerned, have ended in informations being refused. This has been the result of the motion before the House tabled by Deputy Lindsay and Deputy O'Donnell.

Incidentally, before I leave this matter as it is a question which may affect the judgement of the House as regards the whole propriety of this motion, I think I should refer to the fact that as the result of the Garda enquiries there were two people at least charged with alleged offences in Kilcar in Donegal. They were defended by Deputy O'Donnell whose name is to this motion, and they were certainly interviewed, if not advised, by Deputy Lindsay according to their own sworn statement before they gave evidence in that Court, a Court resulting from the allegations of the Deputy in this House and from charges arising out of them. So evidently not alone was the Deputy prepared to raise the hare and chase it through this House, but he and his colleague were prepared to defend the hare when they got outside this House.

This whole business has been fantastic and it reflects little credit on this House. We are seriously asked now under this motion to go ahead with some kind of inquiry by a committee to be set up under the auspices of this House. Let me emphasise that the matters that arose, or are alleged to have arisen, arose long before I became the responsible Minister for this Department, and certainly during the period when both Deputy Lindsay, as the political head, and his predecessor, Deputy Blowick, were in charge.

I do not know that, in common sense, I can ask the House to waste much more time over this matter. I think enough time has been wasted. Unfortunately, if it were only waste of time that resulted from this matter, it would not be too bad. There have been other dire results arising out of this extraordinary motion and as a result of these unfortunate charges. As far as setting up another committee within the terms of the motion, is concerned, I think, as I have said, enough of public time and expense has been wasted to the detriment, I say, of the movers of this motion and to the detriment of the practice of this House.

I would ask the Deputy, in view of what has occurred, in view of the fact that, as a result of these baseless allegations, fully investigated by the courts of this land, fully investigated by the Garda authorities and detectives of this land, in view of the fact that informations were refused in this case and that the Auditor-General of this country has been satisfied that tweed was not missing from Gaeltarra Éireann, will he now withdraw this motion?

He will, and apologise.

If I were not conversant in my professional capacity with the tactics of the Minister in his professional capacity in relation to the criminal code and its administration in the courts of this country, I would be appalled by his statement.

My position as a practitioner in the Criminal Courts does not arise on this motion. It is the Deputy's conduct on this motion that arises.

He has to attack something, surely.

Is this an attack on the Minister?

I do not know if I am to be allowed to make this case by these few cohorts who have been introduced for the obvious purpose of impeding me in making my speech.

Order!

The tweed was missing from Gaeltarra Éireann. After many hearings and many varied explanations by the officials who were brought back repeatedly before the Public Accounts Committee who, at all previous hearings, had refused to accept their explanations—the refusal in the first instance to accept the explanation having come from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General——

Not at all. That is not correct.

Of course, it is correct and Deputy Cunningham knows it is correct.

I know it is incorrect.

Deputy Lindsay must be allowed to make his statement without interruption. He has only a certain length of time.

They are trying to muzzle him.

Deputy Briscoe rose.

The upholder of justice and righteousness is now about to intervene.

You are the judge.

It has been well established that the proceedings of the Public Accounts Committee have always been confidential until they publish their Report. It is wrong for the Deputy to pretend that he has inside knowledge of confidential proceedings.

I am not pretending any such thing.

You are.

I am dealing with reports of the Public Accounts Committee which have been published——

Read them.

Order.

——and the trenchant denunciation of the practice obtaining in Gaeltarra Éireann by the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.

Quote them.

Deputy Lindsay should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

He should not be allowed to make any more misstatements.

It is not a misstatement to say that the Public Accounts Committee have reported on the rather strange practices obtaining in the business methods of Gaeltarra Éireann and that the Public Accounts Committee did not accept the first or the second explanation with regard to the missing tweed.

Quote.

They have accepted it now.

It is not published. I should hate to hurt the tender susceptibilities of Deputy Briscoe by quoting anything confidential.

The Deputy knows that the Auditor-General has accepted it.

Order.

You can shout him down now.

The explanation given now is the most ludicrous ever given of anything in this country, either inside this House or outside it. There were 21,000 pieces of tweed of varying sizes sold. After many explanations dealing with return, yield and everything else, they have now seized upon the most wonderful excuse that each of these pieces—21,000 or so in all—contained an extra yard which was given as a present to every customer but which, up to then, had never been recorded as such.

Ask your colleague, Deputy Dillon, if he accepted that.

Order.

The tweed was missing.

Not according to the Auditor General.

There was no explanation of the missing tweed. As far as I am concerned, the excuses have been so many and so varied and finally so childishly ludicrous that I am not surprised if the Public Accounts Committee did take pity upon them and accepted it at last.

That is your alibi for Deputy Dillon, the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.

The Minister has come in here to deal with my allegation about larger quantities of wool being invoiced than were in fact sent from a wool firm in this town to the Gaeltacht factory at Kilcar. That was proved in the courts beyond the shadow of a doubt. It was proved in one instance —I have photostat copies here of the evidence which the Gardaí had in their possession showing——

Given to you by them.

——that in one instance where 21,000 lbs. net of wool had been invoiced to Gaeltarra Éireann in fact only 14,000 lbs. net arrived at Kilcar. What the Minister for the Gaeltacht forgot to tell the House and the country was this in relation to these district court proceedings, that Mr. Brian Walsh, Senior Counsel, competent and whose integrity could not be questioned, opened the case to the district justice and said, in effect, when dealing with the statement of the accused wool merchant that an arrangement had been made with the management of Gaeltarra Éireann to alter weights and to alter descriptions: "Mr. Reddington, the then Assistant Manager of Gaeltarra Éireann, will deny that there was any such arrangement."

You saw Mr. Reddington's evidence.

Mr. Reddington was then Assistant Manager of Gaeltarra Éireann. He made a statement to the police in which he said that there was no such arrangement with the wool merchants.

On a point of order, this matter has been investigated by the courts. The Deputy is continuing his campaign of slander against a reputable firm that has been acquitted by the courts. Surely this cannot be allowed in this House? It is an outrage on the procedure of this House.

I shall deal with the method of investigation and the handling of this case in the courts.

The handling of this case in the courts is not a matter for me but one for the Department of Justice if the Deputy has any complaint on that score. I protest and say it should not be allowed. Informations have been refused. Deputy Lindsay should not be allowed to continue his campaign of slander against a firm that has been acquitted outside this House.

Acquitted because the Attorney General refused to tender further evidence in support of the charge.

Let the Deputy seek another enquiry on the evidence he has but let him not continue his campaign of slander.

If the Minister does not want to hear the truth it is not my fault.

It is not a question of truth.

The Minister is perfectly conversant with how innocent people emerge from a court of law when the verdict is equivalent to the Scottish verdict of "not proven".

There is a completely different position here and the Deputy well knows it.

I am not disposed to listen to the Minister giving a dissertation on the criminal code. I shall not be interrupted by the Minister in the course of my making this case.

As far as I can see this relevantly arises on the motion. It is not for me to say what was evidence before the court. I have no means of discovering what was or is evidence. I think this arises relevantly on the motion before the House.

I am obliged to the Chair. When the former assistant manager of Gaeltarra Éireann—and by the way that former assistant manager of Gaeltarra Éireann has left Gaeltarra Éireann and left it shortly after these allegations were made in this House—

May I point out that this man is in a very responsible position of employment in this country? He is a man who was recommended for an increase by the Deputy's colleague, Deputy Blowick, who did his damndest to keep him in Gaeltarra Éireann. Can this man be slandered further here to-night?

I must protest——

I quite realise this is a tender matter but, in connection with the matters alleged in this motion, it is impossible for the Chair to say whether what is being said in respect of a certain individual is slander or not, and I do not propose to intervene in that respect.

This man was not a defendant. He was merely a witness.

He was an employee, I understand.

At one time.

He was an employee of Gaeltarra Éireann at one time. It is impossible for the Chair to say——

An employee of Gaeltarra Éireann who, when questioned by the police, purported to give the police in that statement the truth of the matters which were the subject of the investigation at that time. He made a statement to the police saying that there was no such arrangement as the changing of weights and the altering of descriptions. Otherwise why would the Attorney General's competent representative, Mr. Walsh, have said to the District Justice in opening the case and referring to the statement of the accused that there was some arrangement: "Mr. Reddington will say there was no such arrangement."? In that court every day sat that man hearing the evidence of the various people right down along the line, some of them being treated as hospital after their evidence had varied and varied considerably from the statements they had made to the police. He allowed a man who had given evidence before him, whose evidence was contradicted by his own employees, to take his own life at Kilcar.

He allowed the man to take his life?

The Deputy would not understand.

I understand, but I did not understand the Deputy's evidence to the police.

The Deputy would not understand anything straight.

I would not understand his evidence to the police.

What is being done here is a criticism of the court and what took place in court where charges were heard. Is this outrageous precedent to be set by a Deputy who should know better? I am particularly anxious to see that does not happen.

It is happening.

That is for me to decide.

I hope you decide it properly. That is our attitude.

If the Deputy insists on interrupting, I would remind him the Chair has a method of dealing with that. The Chair is very anxious that the proceedings of the court should not be discussed here and I have watched particularly Deputy Lindsay's statement. So far, I have not heard him discuss the proceedings of the court.

I heard him.

May I point out we have had quoted by Deputy Lindsay what counsel is alleged to have said in opening the case? We have had reported the proceedings that have taken place in the court.

The Minister knows what I mean by the court.

The court are the judges of the court.

Exactly. The Minister knows that well.

That is what I mean by the court.

Yes, that is the meaning of the court. He waited until it was safe to change the evidence and he went into the witness box and in direct contradiction of the statement he made to the police and in direct contradiction of the opening statement of counsel for the Attorney General, he said he had such an arrangement with the accused. It was easy to do it then because the man responsible for the checking at Kilcar was no longer alive. It was easy to take advantage when somebody was dead.

Is it suggested that this man under oath was deliberately telling falsehoods?

Of course.

Again, Sir, this is a deliberate allegation of perjury against an individual outside this House, a man who was not even a defendant, merely a witness.

Would he say it outside?

I wonder if these people would be pleased with their new champion in this House, Deputy Briscoe.

Say it outside.

There was a statement from another witness who was examined by the police, a witness who broke off making a statement in the course of it because he felt that what he was saying was not being taken down in the same manner as he was giving it, and he thought he should seek protection.

This again is a criticism of the Garda. If Deputy Lindsay wants to bring in a motion indicting the Gardaí he is welcome to do that, but I suggest it is not relevant to this motion.

The Minister knows that perfectly well.

The Deputy is trying to cover up.

And the Minister collaborated with the Department of Justice in seeking information in the Department of the Gaeltacht in order to try to prove that I had this information before I left the Ministry.

That is untrue and another invention of the Deputy's.

It is not an invention.

The invention of a diseased imagination.

Here is the statement running into 14 closely written pages, all of it evidence signed by the proposed witness and his signature witnessed by Detective Superintendent Weymes and Detective Sergeant Farrell. There are their signatures. That man was called and he was not examined on the important matters——

This again is an attack on the Garda and on the presentation of a case in court for which I have no responsibility whatsoever. I know Deputy Lindsay is trying to raise red herrings to cover himself in this matter.

I do not want to cover myself.

If he wants to attack the Garda let him come in with a motion to attack them.

My position is perfectly clear. I made charges and the whole force of the Government and the Party supporting it was brought to bear to try to revile me up and down the country and try to show that what I was saying was untrue and what I was doing was wrong.

The results are sufficient to revile the Deputy.

I am satisfied. The Minister, in reviewing the case in the Court a while ago, said that the Court's decision after full consideration was to refuse informations.

Yes.

That is not the case. That is not the truth. That is not what happened. There was no decision of the court except an order which is made at the request of the Attorney General when he said that he was not tendering further evidence.

It is not the Court's order now but its decision.

The District Justice specifically asked Mr. Walsh: "Are you withdrawing the charges?" The Attorney-General did not withdraw the charges.

That is not true.

Of course, it is true.

Withdraw.

Order!

We know who the Attorney-General is, too.

He could not withdraw at that stage.

The time has lapsed.

If it has lapsed, it has lapsed by reason of these interruptions. I repeat the charges. The wool was inflated. The Minister is a liar. The Minister for Education prior to that told lies in the House. You are trying to cover up——

Is it in order for a Deputy to call the Minister a liar?

The Deputy did enough damage.

Get yourself home.

I am now putting the motion.

I am leaving this House in protest at the Minister and every member of the Fianna Fáil Party.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

Mr. O'Donnell rose.

I shall hear nothing. I am putting the motion.

A triumph for Justice!

They died with their boots on!

I should like to hear the Minister's opening statement.