Committee on Finance. - Pensions (Increase) Bill, 1962— Committee and Final Stages.
No. 42 of 1962 ›
Could the Minister explain this section to us in simple language? I do not know whether the Minister has counted the number of times the word "emoluments" is mentioned in this section. It consists of one sentence and it must be a record from the point of view of length; it runs into 13 lines. Could we have it explained to us in more concise language? Did the Minister ever get a briefing from one of those television people before he appeared on television—short sentences, simple words? The draftsman certainly did not believe in either in this section.
Comment on this
It is not an easy Bill, in the first place, but in this section, if emoluments come into it, on the average three-year period before 1955, when we come to the date when we are calculating this on the 1959 basis——
Comment on this
Would the Minister excuse me a moment? Sir, today this performance is infinitely worse than usual. I do not think my hearing is any worse than usual, but I cannot hear the Minister at all today. This is echoing back at us all the time.
Comment on this
It is not the Minister's fault. There is something wrong with this apparatus. I should be much happier without it. I could easily hear the Minister without it.
Comment on this
As the Deputy knows, in the case of some civil servants, when retiring, particularly if they are promoted in the last year or so, the pension is calculated on the three-year average. We have to take the same three-year average at 1959 to get the basis of that pension.
Comment on this
Could we have an explanation now of subsection (2) (b), which is also 13 lines? The draftsman could not even fit it on to the one page. He had to go over the page. I never saw an Act with such long sentences in it.
Comment on this
I think this goes back to the point raised by Deputy Costello. If it were calculated on the husband's pay it would be lower in most cases than the minimum put in the Act. In the 1962 Act there is a minimum of £98 and all widows' pensions came up to that. When we come to the 1963 Act that minimum is brought up to £111.
Comment on this
Is this the section under which it is proposed to give the recent increases? Are we to understand that, whilst these increases are being given under this Bill, they will be taken away in respect of those who are in receipt of non-contributory widows' pensions?
Comment on this
I cannot altogether agree with the Deputy that they will be taken away. There is no concession being made to the contrary. In most cases, if a person gets a wage or pension, it is treated as means under these various Acts. We did exclude these increases already. Under the earlier Acts, we excluded them from the calculation of means. Now, we are not putting that in for the 1962-63 increases. That is the only difference. The reason it is not being put in is that the widow of a Garda is now treated at least as well as, but in most cases better than, the ordinary non-contributory widow.
Comment on this
Subsection (5) has one sentence that is 15 lines long. The Minister may understand it but I defy anybody else to do so.
Comment on this
It is not as bad as the previous sentence but it is pretty complicated. I should like to know what it means.
Comment on this
The same point was made already that where the pension was calculated on an average, now it must be made on a three years' average.
Comment on this
Do I understand it to be the position that recipients of this pension who are not obtaining a widow's contributory pension — a woman may have some small means of her own so that she is not entitled to a widow's non-contributory pension —will get the increase, irrespective of means?
Comment on this
Paragraph (p) is the present position. Paragraph (p) is since the second Seanad was established, I suppose.
Comment on this
I want to correct that. Paragraph (p) is the Clerk of the Seanad but the other one, paragraph (m), is the ex-Governor-General— now decreased, of course. He was alive in 1962. I refer to Domhnall Ua Buachalla.
Comment on this
If I ask the Minister to defer it, would there be any chance of having it re-written in simple language?
Comment on this
Then the Minister may have the Bill now.
Bill received for Final Consideration and passed.