asked the Minister for Defence the number of members of Army bands who have bought their way out of the Army since 1st January 1963, in order to join the Garda Síochána Band, the dates upon which such men left the Army, and the amount of money paid by them.

Eight Army bandsmen were discharged by purchase since 1 Eanáir, 1963, for the purpose of joining the Garda Síochána band, five of them with effect from 1 Aibreán, 1964, and three with effect from 18 Bealtaine, 1964. The sum paid in each case was £200 in accordance with the relevant Rialacháin Óglaigh na hÉireann.

Is the Minister in a position to say who paid this money and why this money had to be paid by men in one branch of State employment in order to be given permission to join another branch of State employment, when the purpose in each case was simply to play music?

I presume the answer to the first question is that it was the applicants who paid the money and the answer to the second question is that the money was demanded in accordance with the existing regulations.

Are we to understand then that the position is that, in order to make up the proper complement of bandsmen in the Garda Síochána band, eight private citizens had to pay £1,600 out of their own pockets to the Minister for Defence? Is this not bringing bureaucracy to a complete and utter farce?

They are not private citizens.

Eight men had to pay £200, according to the Minister, out of their own pockets in order to have the great privilege of playing in the blue uniform of the Garda Síochána instead of the green uniform of the Army.

The Army trained them as musicians.

It is a complete farce. The Minister told us last week that his Department did not pay it.

We make musicians out of these young fellows and, if they leave before their contract is complete, I think it reasonable to expect them to pay the cost of their training, a training which is a very valuable asset to them.

Would the Minister state if they had to pay anything when they joined the Garda for training?

That is a separate question.

The new symphony— passing the buck.

Teachers and others have to do the very same.