I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £2,816,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1965, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is mainly required to meet increases in pay arising out of the ninth round settlement, and out of other settlements or awards under the Civil Service Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme and similar arrangements. Deputies may remember that I mentioned, when introducing the main Estimate, that it did not include any provision to meet these. Accordingly, £3,679,000 must now be provided under Subhead A, Salaries, Wages and Allowances. Of that sum, £3,420,000 is to meet the cost of increases in pay, including some £650,000 for retrospective payments relating to 1963/64. The remainder of the supplementary provision is largely for additional telephone operating and engineering staff to meet the needs of the telephone service.

On subhead B, Travelling and Incidental Expenses, the increase of £65,000, approximately, arises mainly from higher rates of travelling, subsistence and similar expenses. On Subhead J, Superannuation and Other Non-Effective payments, approximately £45,000 is being provided to meet increased payments arising from increases to officers retiring, et cetera, on higher rates of pay.

On Subhead K.1 £50,000 is being provided for an increased grant-in-aid to Radio Éireann to pass on, in effect, to the Authority revenue arising from an unexpected growth in the number of combined licences.

The gross increase of over £3.8 millions is offset by savings on other subheads of £450,000, approximately, and by increased appropriations-in-aid amounting to £570,000, approximately, arising mainly from larger recoveries from telephone capital and from other Government Departments for services rendered.

This is a very short statement but I suppose it covers what the Minister requires. The amount for salaries is quite considerable. It is £3,679,000. The Minister says he mentioned in his statement last year he was not making provision for that sum. It is a mistake when a Department knows that a sum has to be paid during the year not to make provision for it. Any good accountancy firm would make provision in their estimate for that. The Minister knew as well as anybody else that the ninth round was coming at the time. It is a mistake that such a large sum should be brought in as a Supplementary Estimate. Practically 25 per cent of the total Estimate is now shown as a Supplementary Estimate. That is not good business and in future years it would be better for the Department to make a much closer estimate than they have made in the past year. They should make provision for anything which comes along, especially as a result of a wage increase.

We all knew how the ninth round came about. It took place because of the turnover tax and all that followed from that. I am very glad to see the Minister is looking for extra money for the telephone services but I think the sum should be much greater than he is looking for. The expansion in telephone services has been increasing rapidly during the past few years. I understand, in reply to a question recently, the Minister stated he had 13,000 applications for telephones, about 2,000 more than he had last year. If we want to gear the country for industrial expansion the first thing we should provide is proper telephone communications. The Minister has fallen down on his job or his Department have fallen down on their job to provide telephones.

The Minister is very courteous when he is written to. He acknowledges the letter and follows it up with another letter saying he regrets the telephone will not be installed for some time. I was wondering during the year would I ever get a letter informing me that the telephone would be installed withing one, two or three months.

That will be the day.

The Minister should do something about the applications for telephones. He is being pressed, when his Estimate comes up every year, from all sides of the House to do something about this matter. I had occasion to write to the Minister about a telephone for a motor engineering firm which employs quite a number of men. They needed the telephone service very badly. They opened a new business in Kilkenny. It was in the city so that there was not much to be done in regard to lines. It was not in a remote part of the country. The very same answer occurred to me. I would ask the Minister during the coming year to look to this matter. Has the Minister any power in the Department or any influence in the Government to insist that money would be allotted for extra telephone services? I believe money allotted in this way would be very useful. This is one of the services which pays its way. It shows a profit every year and I would ask the Minister during the coming year to see that a full service is given.

I notice £50,000 extra is being provided for Radio Éireann. This arises because of the increase in the number of sets bought during the year. We are all very glad to see that.

I have constantly asked the Minister in this House the position regarding the number of people who have applied for telephones. I am sure the Government are very lucky to have such a man as Deputy Michael Hilliard as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. The Minister is such a likeable man that we often pull our punches. At the same time, I should like to point out to him his record. It is in the Official Report, volume 214, No. 2, column 323 of the 11th February last. I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs the number of applications for telephones at present before his Department, the number waiting over (a) one year, (b) two years, (c) three years and (d) four years, and the number of applications that were before his Department 12 months ago. The Minister replied that the number at the 31st December before his Department was 13,215. Of these, the number waiting over one year was 4,536, over two years 1,237, over three years 379 and over four years 29. I think the 29 who are waiting four years must be in my constituency.

Is there money for telephones in this Supplementary Estimate?

There is no capital money involved.

The Minister said that the remainder of the supplementary provision is largely for additional telephone operating and engineering staff to meet the needs of the telephone service.

That is not capital outlay.

The capital amount for this year is £6 million.

The Deputy will have to defer his statement.

We will only have to do what the people waiting for telephones have to do—wait our day. They are waiting a very long time. I am really surprised at the Minister not giving me an opportunity——

It is not the Minister who is stopping the Deputy. The fact is, there is no money for capital outlay.

There will be some money required, if the Minister makes up his mind to wipe out the number of applications for telephones.

The Deputy is trying to help the Minister but, unfortunately, I cannot allow it on the Supplementary Estimate.

The sum of £6 million is the capital utilised this year in developing the telephone services.

There is no mention of telephone services in the Supplementary Estimate.

The only way telephones come into this is an increase in pay for telephone operators and engineering staff. They got increased salaries and wages.

I am finding fault with the Minister that there is not more allocated for wages for these people.

That is capital.

The number waiting for telephones has increased by over 2,000. I am sure the Minister's attention has been drawn to the fact that farmers far out in the country can give up sending their messages by runners or boys on bicycles.

I see that the Estimate for salaries, wages and allowances is £3,600,000. That is a hangover from the cost of winning Kildare and Cork. It is the 12 per cent which keeps recurring. People ask us how do we spend all this money; where is it coming from; what is the meaning of it; how can we expend so much? The Minister coolly comes in here with an original Estimate for £9,633,000 and says he now wants £13,312,000, an extra £3,679,000. He admits it is for the payment of the ninth round wage increases which were prompted by his own Government before the Kildare and Cork byelections. The people should know that is what they are paying out money for.

It is good to see the extra £50,000 in Subhead K—Grant Equivalent to Net Receipts from Broadcasting Licence Fees. I always find it hard to criticise our broadcasting organisation, or to criticise Radio Éireann, because enlightened officials in Radio Éireann have evidently made it the policy to subsidise the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra and the Radio Éireann Light Orchestra. That is one of the things we should do, and of which we should be proud. When we listen to the Light Orchestra we realise that the cost is justified.

I was informed outside the House tonight that the Minister would be taking his main Estimate with this Supplementary Estimate. Now I see he is not. I shall have another opportunity to take the Minister to task, and try to spur him and the Department on to greater efforts to instal telephones for the unfortunate people who have been waiting for them for years.

We have no objection to this Estimate being passed because most of it is to compensate for the ninth round wage increases. There are some other matters which arise but, since the main Estimate will be coming before us in a very short time, it would be unfair to delay the House by dwelling on them.

The Ceann Comhairle may rule me out of order, but I want to appeal to the Minister to use his good offices to terminate the dispute in Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann. The Minister and other Government Ministers have expressed the view again and again that there should be negotiations, not strikes.

The Deputy has anticipated me very well.

I am aware of that and I thank you, Sir, for your courtesy.

We accept that this money is needed to pay for the ninth round of wage increases. My view is that the people are better off and, as the State employs hundreds of thousands of people, those people have to get their cut too, and the only way they can get their cut is through taxation. Here we all understand that, even if some people outside do not.

I have had many complaints from people who want to get telephones. It is time that something was done about them.

That does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate.

I thought everything arose on it.

No.

Deputy T. Lynch told me that everything could be raised.

I am sorry I am not the Ceann Comhairle.

I suppose I can mention Radio Éireann because of the £50,000 in additional licence fees. I shall have another opportunity later on. In my opinion the shows on Telefís Éireann are becoming very "hamish". Lately there is too much talk, and I think there is too much Irish although I am not opposed to Irish. There is no entertainment value in it. Children who used to watch television are turning it off now and putting on pop records. People pay to be entertained. There should be a limit to talk and backchat by professors, and "ham" Irish shows. If the shows are good I do not mind, but when you see children turning away from television and putting on pop records, you know they are not impressed by television. The same applies to adults. I admit that Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann are there for educational purposes as well as entertainment, but people should get a little more of what they like, and pay for. They are entitled to that. It is all right to talk about Irish, but only about ten per cent of the people can follow the Irish programmes. That means that 90 per cent of the people are victimised. They are the people who keep Telefís Éireann going; not the ten per cent. They want a little more entertainment, and they are paying enough for it.

I want to congratulate the Minister on the good work he is doing, but I should like him to make a special effort to give telephone communication to the backward areas.

Hear, hear.

The Deputy knows I ruled references to telephones out of order. There is no capital outlay provided in this Estimate. The Deputy must preserve his soul in patience until the main Estimate comes before the House.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on the good work he has done so far as telephones and other business in his Department are concerned, and I hope he will do what he can to help people in the backward areas.

Very ingenious.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on the forward-looking policy which he has at last decided to put into operation. The sooner the better. In some parts of the country there is no post, or the postal service is very poor. No telegrams are sent since the 5/- charge was imposed. That is an exorbitant charge. It is cheaper to go to a funeral now than to send a telegram. The Minister should reconsider that decision. I do not mind people being charged a fee for delivery but 5/- is too dear. He should make an effort to improve the position with the finances at his disposal. A great many technicians are required in that service if it is to be effective. The Minister would be giving much-needed employment if he took in young boys from the vocational schools or the technical colleges and gave them the essential training. It would not take long for them to acquire the skills necessary to lay lines and improve the telephone system. Since I came into the House today I phoned my home in Belmullet, 200 miles away. Matters have improved very substantially because I got through in about three minutes against an hour and a half only a year ago, or so. That is a compliment to the Minister.

This is a very restricted debate and I do not want to prolong it in any way. When the main Estimate comes before this House, I shall certainly have something to say about Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann, either of which is not giving the country the services one would expect. There is no excuse for the type of tripe dished out on our television service, which is imported from America or some foreign country. We have plenty of native talent and it should be employed in the presentation of good Irish shows. I am sure the Minister knows and feels that as well as I do. If it should cost more money, go and spend it on them but make Telefís Éireann a symbol of our Irish statehood.

Let it be shown to the world that at last we have grown up because the tripe at present dished out from Montrose is something like what one would expect among the Lilliputians or something like that. The Minister must intervene, even now, and give us decent programmes. Some of them are good but some are pure unadulterated tripe. Furthermore, they are biased in many ways, and biased politically, which is worse: I do not say they are biased in favour of the Government. The Minister should intervene and see that justice is done to the people who have to pay £5 for their licence, having also paid maybe up to 130 guineas for their set by the time they have made all the payments on the Kathleen Mavourneen. Our people should be treated as adults and not brainwashed by people who want to dish out that type of tripe to us.

There is not a lot to reply to on the debate on this Supplementary Estimate. I know that the Deputies are looking forward to the main Estimate which I shall introduce as soon as possible. Opening the debate for Fine Gael, Deputy Crotty seemed to think that provision should be made in the main Estimate for the increases in salaries and wages to the staffs in the Post Office. He seemed to think that nothing more is concerned in this matter but the ninth round. At the time, we did not know what wage increases would cost us. There were status claims to be dealt with under the Conciliation and Arbitration scheme, as well as the ordinary ninth round applications. I did make provision at the time for the payment of wage increases by increasing the postal charges and Deputies opposite made the welkin ring in this House——

And rightly so.

——because I had the courage to come here and to make provision for increases that fell to be met during the year because of the pending awards: some had already been made and some were pending by arbitration.

Only a soldier would have the courage to introduce a Supplementary Budget.

I had the courage to do what was necessary.

You had.

The accounts of the Post Office will show that, even with the increased charges, there will still be a deficit. We do not know what the deficit really will be until 31st March has passed.

There is bound to be a deficit because the people are not using the services.

They are using the services—and the services of this country, both postal and telephone services, compare very favourably with the services in other administrations. I cannot deal at length with the telephone services. Last year, as Deputies will remember, a sum of £6 million was provided for expenditure on that service until 31st March of this year. I would advise Deputies to have a look at the other side of this account. They will hear, in my main Estimate speech, the amount of permanent constructive work done in this country over the past five years for the telephone services.

As far as the present dispute with the journalists is concerned, mentioned by Deputy Tully, I think it would not be helpful that I should make a statement about it at the moment.

Would the Minister intervene?

No.

Ministers have been preaching that unilateral action should not be taken and yet it has been taken by Telefís Éireann.

As far as the programmes of the Broadcasting Authority are concerned, I would remind Deputies that that matter is left almost entirely to the Broadcasting Authority, through the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960. I have not the power to deal with the day-to-day programme of the Authority. Within the obligations placed on them under the Act, the Authority are free to pursue the national aims and to provide the country with a proper broadcasting service.

I do not think there are any other questions to answer on the debate on this Estimate. I am grateful to the House for the manner in which they have received it.

The Minister could give a little prompt to Telefís Éireann about that, at the same time. The Minister is not saying anything about that but, if he did it, this whole business could be settled.