asked the Minister for Transport and Power whether Dr. Andrews received any pension and other emoluments from Bord na Móna and the ESB; and, if so, what amounts.

3.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power what pension and emoluments have been paid to Dr. Andrews for his services from Bord na Móna and the ESB.

I propose, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together.

The pension of £3,080 and the gratuity of £8,213 which will become payable to Dr. Andrews on his retirement from CIE on 7th October, 1966, are calculated on a total of 40 years public service, commencing in September, 1926 and terminating in October, 1966, including service with the ESB, the Civil Service, as Managing Director of Bord na Móna and Chairman of CIE. No gratuity or pension is payable to him by any of the undertakings other than CIE.

The superannuation scheme in question (Presentation No. 5586) was laid before each House of the Oireachtas in June, 1960, in accordance with the provisions of the Transport Act, 1959, under which it was open to either House to annul the scheme by resolution. No such resolution was moved in either House.

Are we to take it that, in addition to the details provided as to the munificent pension and the lump sum given to this ex-public official, he will continue to enjoy free travel facilities by road or rail or, alternatively, by a chauffeur-driven Rolls, as heretofore?

An Austin Princess.

I do not know the regulations with regard to his future privileges in CIE. He did not have a Rolls. If the Deputy wishes to start an attack on this very wonderful man who created Bord na Móna and gave permanent employment to 5,000 people in this country, my reply is that if a Labour Government were in office and could find a man of the calibre of Dr. Andrews, who could succeed in creating entirely new industries employing 5,000 people, they would be very willing to grant him a gratuity and a pension at this level irrespective of his later service to CIE during which he saved the taxpayers between £1 million and £2 million a year.

You should give Paddy McGilligan £20,000, so, for starting the ESB.

Is the Minister inviting an attack upon Dr. Andrews?

No, but the implication is there.

I am merely expressing the views of the vast majority of the people of this country on this act by the Government.

That does not arise.

Furthermore, is the Minister seriously suggesting to this House that the public official referred to created any of these industries himself and is responsible for the employment of the men in them? His record in Bord na Móna and his treatment of the men employed there does not stand up to examination. He starved the men out of their huts.

Is it a fact that two pensions are being paid to Mr. Andrews in recognition of his long and faithful service to Fianna Fáil as an employment agent, for Fianna Fáil, and Fianna Fáil only?

This is entirely in accordance with Civil Service procedure. Perhaps the Deputy would like me to give an account of the payments paid to Mr. Courtney, the former chairman of CIE.

You will hear it whether you like it or not.

Is it not a fact that this man devoted all his life to providing employment for Fianna Fáil touts? This is a national disgrace.

The Deputy is going to hear me whether he likes it or not. Mr. Courtney, the former chairman of CIE, received a pension in accordance with Civil Service regulations. That pension was £1,750 a year for 31 years of service. If there had been 40 years of service, the pension would have been £2,330 and at the then value of money, it would amount to £2,800 today. In addition, he received a gratuity of £8,000, exactly the same as in this case.

He was a qualified man, a qualified engineer.

I am entitled to ask the Minister if there is a situation now prevailing whereby this alleged great civil servant, who was an OC many years ago, now holds two jobs. Is he still chairman of CIE as well as being chairman of Telefís Éireann?

Might I ask, without any heat at all, if the Minister can explain to the House and to the people who are looking for an explanation how he reconciles the payment of this pension and lump sum to Dr. Andrews at a time when rail workers, bus workers and road freight workers with from 40 to 45 years service are enjoying, if one can use the word, pensions ranging from 12/6 to 30/- a week? The Minister owes it to himself and certainly to the House to explain how he can reconcile the pension and gratuity being paid to Mr. Andrews with the miserable pittances being doled out to men who served on the railways, on the buses and in the road freight section for periods of from 40 to 45 years.

This is a statement by way of question.

Can I get a reply to my question? Does this man now hold two positions?

Mr. Courtney was left on as a director of CIE at £500 a year.

Answer my question. Does he hold two positions?

I call Question No. 4.

I want a reply to my supplementary question.

I have called Question No. 4. The Deputy will resume his seat.

The Deputy will resume his seat or leave the House.

I want an answer to my question. Is he chairman of two boards or is he not? We are going to make an issue of this. Can I get an answer to my question? The answer is "yes" or "no".

I will have to name Deputy Coughlan to the House if he persists.

Deputy Coughlan is quite entitled to get an answer to his question.

Is Deputy Coughlan entitled to a reply?

The whole thing is a national disgrace.

I can answer it. This is typical of the Deputies opposite. If every person earning £2,500 a year in CIE, the whole of the executive staff were removed from office, the saving would add 2/9 per week per head to the remuneration of the staff. All this kind of talk is ridiculous and nonsensical, and will get nobody anywhere.

I did not get a reply to my question.

I have called Question No. 4. The Deputy will resume his seat or leave the House.

I asked a supplementary question and I stated that I was not asking it in a heated manner. It is my duty as a public representative to get an answer to my question.

How can you reconcile this with the miserable pittance paid to old age pensioners?

Deputy Casey will resume his seat or I will ask him to leave the House. I have called Question No. 4.

This matter is being sidestepped and we will not permit it. I propose to raise the matter on the Adjournment.