andMr. T. O'Donnell asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if in order to ensure stability of prices he will immediately establish contact with his opposite number in the United Kingdom to establish a minimum guaranteed price for all livestock products.

As already announced, I had a discussion earlier this week with the British Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food about trade in livestock and meat. The prices for Irish store cattle, store sheep and store lambs fattened in the UK and for exports to the UK of 25,000 tons of Irish carcase beef and 5,500 tons of Irish carcase lamb per annum are already linked to the guaranteed prices payable to British producers. These arrangements, which cover the bulk of our exports of cattle, sheep and lambs in all forms to Britain, provide a valuable measure of support for market prices here even when, as has recently been the case, the international market for cattle and beef may be weak.

At my meeting with Mr. Peart we discussed the causes of the weakness of the market and considered the possibilities for the future, which it is generally accepted offer good long-term prospects for beef.

Could the Minister indicate if there is any floor price, as asked in the question?

No Minister in Europe, or indeed in any country that I know, can guarantee stability in prices for livestock and livestock products.

As we have guaranteed to give to the British market so many head of cattle each year, does the Minister not think it reasonable that in return we should have some guaranteed floor price for such supplies and does he not consider that the fact that there is no guaranteed floor price is responsible for the present disastrous situation?

The corollary to our undertaking in the Free Trade Agreement to use our best endeavours to supply 680,000 head of cattle each year to the UK market is that the three months waiting period was reduced to two months, thereby linking the Irish store animal as closely as possible to the British guaranteed payments system.

There is a variation as between the prices available to the British farmers and the Irish farmers. Is that not a matter the Minister should take up at Ministerial level with his opposite number in Britain?

I discussed with Mr. Peart very fully every aspect of the trade.

Can the Minister explain why the British farmer is getting as much as 40/- a cwt. more than the Irish farmer?

In fact, he is not. The figures being quoted are very misleading indeed. Within the range of the British guaranteed payments system, there is wide variation in what the British farmer gets for his animal. This was underlined very clearly by the British Minister. There is no country in Europe that I am aware of where stability of livestock or livestock product prices can be guaranteed.

It is, within the Common Market.

It is not.

It is.

The Deputy is wrong. There is only a guide price, which is a different thing altogether.

Can the Minister explain the difference of 20/- in favour of the Northern Ireland farmer?

I can explain it but it is a very long, complicated and technical business.

Go down to Merrion Square and explain it to Mr. Deasy. Why is the Minister not there to meet him?

To the Deputies who are interested in getting the facts of this situation, I want to state that the British Minister and his advisers pointed out to us that the price of home-produced British stores had fallen, relatively, to a greater extent than Irish stores.

Why did the Minister state here last January in introducing the Free Trade Agreement that a floor price was being put on livestock? The Minister said that in the House last January. Why does he deny it today?

Why did you believe him?

There has been a floor.

That is the seventh supplementary question on this matter. I am calling Question No. 26.

26.

asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if it is his intention to guarantee for all types of livestock for next spring prices similar to those that prevailed in the spring of 1966.

It would not be practicable to guarantee that actual market price levels next spring for all types of livestock will be similar to those which prevailed last spring. While prices next spring will depend largely on export market conditions at that time, they will, of course, benefit from our export support arrangements, namely, the subsidy on export of carcase beef and lamb to Britain, which supports the prices of fat cattle, sheep and lambs here, and the link with the British Fatstock Guarantee Scheme which supports the price of our store cattle, sheep and lambs.

Do I understand the Minister to say he is not in a position to guarantee the price in the spring of 1967?

I am afraid not.

If that is the case, in view of the advice the Minister gave to the farmers within the past three weeks, how does he expect the farmers to take his advice to hold on to their cattle when he cannot guarantee the price of livestock for next spring?

There is every reasonable expectation that the seasonal rise in prices which normally comes at the beginning of December and carries on into the spring will take place this year.

I hope the Minister is a better prophet than when he said there would be an increase of £6 a head.

The advice I gave the farmers who could do so to hold on to their stock was echoed by the Irish Farmers Journal.

Is the Minister basing his expectation that prices will improve within the next few months on a prospective seasonal increase only, or has he further information? We all expected that he had.

All the experts agree the long term prospects for beef and livestock are good. There is every expectation that the present situation which has been brought about by a combination of temporary factors will not prevail.

Would the Minister now, three weeks after his original announcement, still advice the farmers to hold on to their store cattle?

Yes.

(Cavan): Explain that to the farmers outside.

What happens to the small farmer who cannot afford to hold his cattle?

In the light of the Minister's answer that he cannot guarantee prices for livestock next spring as at least the same as last spring, would he still advise the farmers to hold on to their cattle, and will he further guarantee that any of the small farmers who are in difficulty will be facilitated by the Agricultural Credit Corporation, as stated in this House two or three weeks ago?

The soundest advice I can give is that any farmer who can do so should hold on to his stock. I do not know if the Deputy was here when I announced it, but the Agricultural Credit Corporation have, in fact, initiated a completely new scheme whereby a farmer who finds himself in difficulty in holding on to his stock can apply to them for a loan of £500 at the normal rate of interest and on a simple promissory note basis which will be repayable next July.

Would the Minister try to explain to those people in the House who seem to know no better that the cattle industry in this country always depended upon supply and demand? That is a very reasonable explanation.

Do not be making excuses for Fianna Fáil.

I am not making excuses to somebody like the Deputy who knows nothing about it.

There is a real farmer talking.

Does the Minister envisage overcoming what he described in his statement last Wednesday week as the major factor in the very sharp fall in cattle prices, namely, the introduction by EEC countries in April of this year of a common agricultural price? Does he envisage overcoming that in the near future?

As the Deputy knows, in my remarks on the Fine Gael motion, I drew attention to the fact that the introduction of the common agricultural price was having a very severe effect on the traditional export trade of some of us third countries. I suggested this was something the Commission in Brussels must have regard to, the very serious disruptive effect of these tariffs and levies imposed by the EEC countries on traditional suppliers of livestock products like us. I would hope that regard would be had to our vital interests in this matter by the Commission in Brussels and by the governments of the member countries. This is why I regard the concession by the German Government in taking, free of levy and duty, 2,000 of our cattle under the Interzonal Arrangement, as a very important and significant concession.

That is infinitesimal in solving the problem of outlets.