asked the Minister for Education if he will state the basis, giving figures for each project, on which he has said that the Building Design Associates have saved the country one and a half million pounds.

The cost, based on the recommendations of the Steering Committee on Technical Education, of providing the nine Regional Technical Colleges was estimated at £8,531,000.

The detailed design and cost studies carried out by Building Design Associates in association with officers of my Department enabled this figure to be revised to £7,129,000. Furthermore, as a result of bulk sub-contracting and supply procedures evolved by Building Design Associates, this overall cost figure is being maintained despite considerably increased building costs.

The savings in cost in respect of each college are set out in a table which, with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I will have circulated with the Official Report.

Following is the table:

REGIONAL TECHNICAL COLLEGES

This is simply a revision of an estimate. It is not a saving.

Indeed, it is—I can give the Deputy all the details—a substantial saving.

This is what I have asked for.

It is one of the most progressive things done in regard to building by any Government.

I take it the simple operation still exists of advertising for tenders for this type of job and that the lowest or next lowest most suitable tender would be accepted?

Of course, yes.

Where, then, is the saving?

The saving is in regard to the preliminary planning and design work. In regard to the actual construction work, the lowest tender obtains; but the planning is being done on a uniform, national basis, so that there has been a considerable saving there. Rather than dealing with each building project on its own, in isolation, the whole project has been regarded as one and a similar type of design plan and approach has been adopted towards the nine. This has resulted in a saving of £1½ million to the State. These are the facts of the matter.

This cannot be because if the usual system operates of the lowest tender, if these Building Design Associates, or whatever these people call themselves, were not there at all, the ordinary quantity surveyor's and architect's work would be done by other firms and they would get their normal fee of five per cent and outlay, which these gentlemen are getting.

The Deputy is used to dealing with percentages. I am concerned about getting work done. Of the nine colleges proposed, five are already under construction, the actual bricks and mortar work is going on. It is being done in a remarkably speedy time on a uniform system of planning design which saved the State £1½ million and, as far as the contractors are concerned, this has been a matter completely open and above-board.

Where is the £1½ million saved if it is only a question of saying, "This will cost £9 million" and it is revised to £7½ million? Surely the first £9 million is a speculative figure which has no basis in fact? This is all codology.

Building costs have appreciated in the past two years since the figure of £8½ million was set and, despite the appreciation in building costs in that period of over two years, the reduction from £8½ million to £7 million for the nine regional colleges is, to put it mildly, very spectacular.

Is not the situation simply that a selected body of architects are chosen by Fianna Fáil to get five per cent and outlay——

The Deputy knows that that is a lot of nonsense.

It is not—and that the chairman is the chairman of Taca. Five per cent and outlay means £350,000 for five selected gentlemen.

I think the Deputy is wearing himself out. The Irish public would not accept that nonsense.

The Irish public are fast getting on to it. The reduction of membership of Taca from £100 to £5 will not do anything.

The Labour Party do not think that sort of thing. If Deputy Lindsay wants to engage in mud-larking, he can.

Five per cent and outlay is not mud-larking, given to specially selected fellows.

The Deputy has been at this all his life.

Of course, and will stay at it.

And will remain precisely where he is.

In spite of your efforts at dividing my constituency in two, I will be back from somewhere to deal with the five per cent and outlay chaps.

And it will not be from Westmeath.

Or Roscommon.