asked the Minister for Education if he will indicate the optimum size of class in terms of pupil/teacher ratio recommended by his Department in respect of (a) primary and (b) secondary schools.

It is policy of my Department in relation to primary schools to continue as circumstances permit to reduce the pupil/teacher ratio until the position would be reached when no teacher would have more than 35 pupils.

The pupil/teacher ratio approved for secondary schools and which I consider to be adequate is one teacher for every 20 pupils excluding the principal and vice-principal teachers and in schools of 250 pupils and over the guidance teacher.

Is it not the case that the rules and regulations for secondary schools up to recently laid down a ratio of 1 to 15? Has there not been a great deal of complaint about the deterioration in the standard of secondary education provided in the country?

There is no question of any deterioration.

There most certainly is.

When there were very many small schools it was necessary to reduce the pupil/teacher ratio to 1 to 15. That position has changed considerably. We are endeavouring to form larger units in one way or another or to get co-operation between the various schools. I pointed out on previous occasions that I discussed the pupil/teacher ratio with Ministers for Education and educational authorities in other countries. I found that what we were sanctioning was a very much lower pupil/ teacher ratio than that prevailing or in some instances even contemplated in those countries. Indeed, in this country the vast majority of the schools did not find it necessary to go anywhere near the ratio of 1 to 5. The basic point I want to make is that what we are proposing is educationally sound and within our capacity to finance.

Could the Minister say how many schools are in that category—the percentage?

I think it is less than 10 per cent.

Is the Minister aware that this system is being used by his Department in order to close small schools? I think it is designed to close small viable schools which parents want to keep open.

This is absolute nonsense.

It is not.

It is. If the Deputy were to look at the pupil/teacher ratio he would find that in the small schools he is speaking of the ratio is very low, because of what we now propose. Therefore, we could not possibly be using the system for the purpose the Deputy said.

The Department are using it to reduce the number of teachers which they would sanction for those schools——

The Deputy has changed his argument entirely.

I have not. Are we to take this type of irresponsible argument from the Minister?

34.

asked the Minister for Education if he will state (a) the average number of pupils in secondary school classes in proportion to teachers and (b) the average number of pupils in secondary school classes in the Dublin city and county area.

The average number of pupils per class for all secondary schools is 21.9. The corresponding figure for the Dublin city and county area is 22.4.