asked the Minister for Finance the correlation between the growth of consumer debt and the rate of inflation.

40.

asked the Minister for Finance what consideration, if any, he has given to the inflationary effect of credit facilities on the growth of consumer expenditure.

41.

asked the Minister for Finance the proportion of consumer debt accounted for by bank credit cards; and the estimate of the growth of such proportion in the next five years.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 39 to 41, inclusive, together.

There is no identifiable correlation of the kind suggested by the Deputy. I do not consider that the availability of consumer credit facilities has a significant inflationary effect at the present time.

Credit extended by means of bank credit cards forms part of overall bank credit and separate figures are not available. The use of bank credit cards in this country is limited, however, and accounts for only a small proportion of consumer debt. I am unable to give any forecast of future growth in their use but some expansion is to be expected.

Would the Minister say why he is not in a position to give some figures as to its extent? Would he not consider it advisable to have some knowledge of this?

I do not think it is necessary. As I explained to the Deputy on a previous occasion, my primary concern in this matter is the overall amount of credit rather than the various methods by which it is made available.

Would the Minister not agree that it is a matter of the availability of credit for proper purposes?

Yes.

And that there is a limit to the amount of credit that is and can be available?

I would not accept that no credit at all should be made available for consumer purposes.

That the exploitation of the consumer by the issue of these cards can be dangerous?

I do not accept that there is exploitation.

An interest charge of 80 per cent is exploitation.

Could the Minister say in relation to the reply to Question No. 39 the source from which he derives his figures of consumer debt in order to reach the conclusion that there is no correlation between it and the rate of inflation?

The Deputy seems to be asking two questions here. Correlation is one thing and I replied to the question about correlation.

The Minister said that there was no correlation but I would like to know how he arrived at that conclusion. Did he have any figures of personal consumer debt?

Yes.

Does he have such figures?

Yes.

Where did you get them?

From my Department.

Are they published figures?

Question No. 42.

The Chair will agree that we have not been asking many supplementaries and if the Minister would give us figures on this, we could perhaps make up our own minds as to whether there is a correlation or not.

The Deputy would want to put down a question if that is the question he wants to ask.

Would the Minister even say on what basis he states this?

I do not have the information here at the moment. The Deputy may appreciate that the replies prepared for his questions were prepared on a certain basis. I will confess that one of them was that the same precise questions, word for word, had been asked in the British House of Commons.

I can tell the Minister that the answer was a lot more satisfactory than that given by him.

The Deputy should raise it on the Adjournment.

Has the Minister the figure for hire purchase debt?

There is such a figure, I believe, but I do not have it here. I was not asked that question.

Is it published?

I have already replied to that.

You said you did not know.

That is right. If the Deputy wants to put a question to that effect, I will certainly answer it.