asked the Minister for Transport and Power if all farmers who have farming machinery and particularly those who have machinery for hire will be given sufficient oil supply to enable them to carry on normal farming work; and if he will state the position regarding petrol and indicate if petrol supply will soon improve.

41.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he is aware of difficulties which farmers are encountering in procuring adequate supplies of diesel oil; and if he will indicate the action, if any, he can take in the matter.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 40 and 41 together.

Deliveries of gas diesel oil for agriculture and agricultural machinery are at present restricted to 90 per cent of requirements. Where a farmer did not receive a supply of oil during the basic period or increased or decreased his business significantly or changed the character of his business since March, 1973, there is provision for determination by me, after consultation with the oil wholesaler or distributor concerned, of a revised quota.

I am satisfied that by exercising reasonable care and economy farmers can carry on normal operations within these allocations. The delivery of petrol is restricted to 82½ per cent of requirements in the case of retail outlets and 90 per cent in the case of commercial consumers.

These are the highest levels of delivery that can be made in the current supply situation recognising priority and essential needs. Agricultural needs are regarded as a high priority and are on a par with industrial processing. Should there be a further improvement in the situation the restrictions will be eased to reflect the improvement.

42.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he considers that action is needed to ensure that petrol companies give the correct quota to private pump owners, in view of allegations that company-owned pumps are being supplied at the expense of private pumps.

43.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he has granted permits or any special facilities to any oil suppliers since the present energy crisis began or if any suppliers are permitted to draw more than their quotas.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 42 and 43 together.

Pursuant to orders made by me under the Fuels (Control of Supplies) Act, 1971, deliveries of oil products are restricted to percentages of deliveries made in the period of six months ended 31st March, 1973. Under the most recent order made on 30th January, wholesalers and distributors are required to deliver up to the limit of the quota so fixed within a tolerance of 100 gallons. Where no appropriate quota exists or where a customer's business has changed significantly in volume I may determine an appropriate quota and I have done so in a number of cases.

I have no reason to believe that discrimination of the kind referred to by Deputy Callanan is being practised. One specific complaint of this kind which was made to my Department was on investigation found to be without foundation. I am prepared to have investigated any other specific case brought to my attention.

Surely the Minister is aware that during the emergency at pumps that were owned by companies you could get petrol any time? They were open every day. Private pumps were not getting supplies. Eventually they did get their quotas and, I must say, the Minister helped them to get them. This question is not so relevant now but it was very relevant when I put it down.

Only one specific complaint of this kind was made to my Department and on investigation it was found to be without foundation. I am prepared to have investigated any other specific case brought to my attention and if the Deputy has them I shall be pleased to investigate them.

The Minister did state that he had to make special arrangements in some cases where quotas did not exist. Would he make available the names of the stations or proprietors to whom quotas were made available?

No, I will not make available the names of these people. Quotas have been made available at the request of a number of individuals and various Deputies. I do not think it would be proper to introduce the names in the House.

On the matter of Government policy in regard to the importation of oil, have there been any direct negotiations with producing countries so that we would not be completely dependent on Britain for supplies?

That is a separate question.

Is the Minister aware that across the Border in the Six Counties supplies are more freely available in a general way and this does not seem to be in keeping with what we understood to be the case, that Britain was treating us fairly and equitably as regards supplies?

No, they are not more freely available.

Certainly petrol is more freely available. You can pull up anywhere and get petrol.

So I understand, but the basis is exactly the same.

If you take four gallons you get 8p off.

Apart from that, you can get it.

44.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if officers of his Department carry out inspections of petrol tanks to ensure that retailers are not storing petrol.

I have not the powers to carry out such inspections.

This question is hardly relevant now with the price of petrol up today but just before it went up previously by 4p per gallon it was being held. It was well known that people could not get petrol because it was being held for the increase of 4p per gallon.

Again, if the Deputy can give me specific cases I shall refer them to the Minister for Industry and Commerce who is in charge of prices and ask him to investigate them. In fact, if the Deputy knows of these cases he has a duty to do this.

It is common knowledge.

Common knowledge is only a vague term. Give me two cases and I shall have them investigated.

I could give the Minister six.

This business of throwing accusations around the House where Deputies are quite free from any comeback from the public is most unfair to the very many honest garage owners who gave out their complete quota of petrol every month fairly and without waiting for a price increase. If Deputy Molloy has specific cases in his county of people hoarding petrol for a price increase he should let me have them. If he cannot put up, let him shut up.

The Minister should know about them.

How can I know? Have a bit of sense.

It is the Minister's job.

The Deputy is the one who is making these claims.

45.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if there is a real basis for the oil crisis.

Yes. As the Deputy will be aware, the Arab States reduced production following the outbreak of the Arab/Israeli war and imposed an embargo on deliveries to certain destinations. The result of these actions resulted in this country in a reduction of supplies which has necessitated restrictions in deliveries. The situation has eased somewhat but the need for restrictions and for the utmost economy remains.

Would the Minister agree that this country like other oil importing countries is a victim of the most massive international swindle ever operated by the major multi-national oil companies which will net them many millions——

The Deputy is making a statement. Question No. 46.

——and that in this country alone they will make a profit of about £5 million?

No, I would not agree. As the Deputy should know, the oil producing states quadrupled the price of petrol in the last four months and this must have affected prices.

There are five major multi-national oil companies in the United States——

The Chair has called Question No. 46.

I would not have any knowledge of that.

If the Minister has not, he is the victim of the swindle also.

And the rest of the world as well, if the Deputy is right but I do not think the Deputy is correct.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the efforts he has made to purchase oil direct from production sources.

47.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power why a £750 million five-year oil offer was rejected by him; and if he will make a general statement on the matter.

48.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he will give particulars of the reported offer by an American firm of a five year contract for the supply of oil.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 46, 47 and 48 together.

I have explored with the oil companies and other parties the possibilities of securing oil from production sources. A number of offers of varying degrees of credibility have reached my Department through various channels. They all involved large amounts, high prices and long-term contracts.

The Whitegate refinery has a total throughput of about 2¾ million tons a year. Supplies of crude throughout the crisis have not dropped below 80 per cent and are at present at 100 per cent. It would not be possible, therefore, to process any significant quantities of crude oil through the Whitegate refinery.

Even if quantities of crude which the Irish market could absorb in refined form, could be obtained and refined abroad it would still be necessary to provide for their importation and distribution through commercial channels which possess the necessary storage and distribution facilities. It was stated to be a condition of the various offers which reached me that oil should not be handled by any of the major oil companies. In general, none of the proposals which I have investigated so far appeared to offer a practical prospect of securing additional supplies at tolerable prices and without the danger of prejudicing supplies through normal channels.

The proposal was that the Government should enter into a five-year contract for the purchase of five million tons of crude oil per annum at a price corresponding to then current reported prices for participation oil, that is oil sold by Arab states to independent customers, but alleged to be capable of negotiation downwards. There was also to be a brokerage fee of $2 per barrel. It was claimed that the refining of the oil could be arranged abroad and products not required by Ireland bought back by the promoters of the deal. The Government would thus be committed to trading in oil products to the value of some £150 million per annum under a five-year fixed price contract which included commission to the brokers of some £30 million per annum.

Were it practicable at present to provide additional supplies of products for the Irish market by the purchase of crude oil from producing states I am confident that we would be able to deal direct with them in the matter.

I did not quite catch what the Minister said. Were any efforts made to purchase oil directly other than the efforts by some brokers to flog oil? Did the Minister make an effort to negotiate the direct importation of oil either in the context of the present emergency or on a long-term basis particularly to ensure that the panic created in the last few months would not recur? In relation to the effort which was made to flog oil here by some brokers, particulars of which the Minister has just given, has he got an indication that there is oil available to those who are prepared to give most for it? Is he also aware that we are the victims of a colossal cartel which is actually creating a situation where high profits on oil are to be obtained?

There was always crude oil available during this emergency, participation oil which I have referred to, at very exorbitant prices I refused to deal with people who wanted a long-term contract for this oil at these prices because I would not tie this country to paying enormous sums of money for five years hence. There is also the fact that a commission was looked for for two individuals, which would be on the back of the taxpayers for the next five years, at £30 million a year. I think my attitude to this is quite correct bearing in mind what happened in the Kuwait Oil Market yesterday.

The Minister has just stated that two people were going to make a whole lot on this particular oil deal. Is it not a fact that unless he deals directly on a sovereign State to sovereign State basis the same thing can happen again? Is there any difference between a brokerage company and a large combine, such as Esso and the others without naming the seven of them making a profit? Is it not the same thing except a different pattern?

I would certainly agree that in future this country should, if possible, be self-sufficient in its oil supplies. The fact of the matter is that for a great number of years now crude oil to this country could only be refined at Whitegate, which supplies less than half of our needs. It is the only refinery in this country. It is owned, by the way, by three of the major companies. Transport in regard to that crude oil is owned by major oil companies and the distribution chains in this country are owned by the major oil companies. There is no way in the short term that we could get out of their hands. This is the reality of life in the oil business at the moment. In answer to Deputy Brennan's question the Government are looking at this to see if there is any possibility of direct importation of oil but, as I pointed out we must have additional oil refineries. Crude oil is no good to us. Whitegate is running at 100 per cent of its capacity. Offering us crude oil at the moment is like going into a tailer, offering him a flock of sheep and asking him to make a suit for you. That is the analogy in regard to offering crude oil to the Irish Government at the moment. We have not the transportation, the refining capacity or the distribution systems.

The Minister referred to the fact that we have not transportation. Is it not a fact that it is very easy to charter tankers at the present time to transport oil? Is it not a fact that it is possible to get crude oil refined on the Continent at the present time if we want to?

Yes, it is easy at the moment. It was not easy before Christmas. It is much easier now to charter tankers. They are available reasonably freely at the moment. There is some doubt as to whether we could have got oil refined on the Continent. I think it may have been possible to do that but we have not got the distribution system here in this country. The distribution system belongs to the major oil companies. A condition of all the offers we have been made of crude oil was that it should not be handled by the major oil companies.

Would the Minister make a statement, if not now at the earliest possible date, on what our position would be if Britain in the future nationalised the importation and distribution of oil?

I am not in a position to answer that question now.

Have the Government made any direct approach to the oil-producing countries with regard to the erection of oil refineries here?

This is a separate question.

The Government are investigating every possibility open to them to try to cater for the present and future needs of this country in regard to oil.

49.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he will state, even approximately, the quantity of oil in storage in the country at the present time; and whether it is more or less than what are regarded as normal stocks.

Total stocks of oil on 18th February, 1974, amounted to about 677,000 metric tons. This is some 122,000 metric tons short of the 65 days overall supply with which we entered the present crisis.

50.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he will state whether any shipment of oil consigned to this country since October, 1973, failed to discharge their cargoes here; and, if so, why.

I am aware of only one such shipment. The failure to discharge the cargo was due to an industrial dispute in Dublin Port.

Was the cargo eventually discharged?

Yes, it was. The tanker was diverted to the ESB at Tarbert. It was blacked by the trade unions and was then sent to Antwerp. The cargo was later trans-shipped to Dublin in smaller ships.

Was it smaller ships but the same quantity?

Yes. It was a cargo owned by the ESB. The pilot strike at Dublin Port at the time prohibited the handling of ships over a certain tonnage. This ship was over that tonnage and was diverted from Dublin to Tarbert. They refused to handle it and it was sent to Antwerp. It was broken down into ships which the pilots would handle and it came in eventually.

51.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he is satisfied that the oil company which enjoys the storage facilities at Whiddy Island is maintaining the strategic reserves of the product at this installation.

The answer is in the affirmative.

What is the requirement imposed on the people who own this installation so far as quantity or days supply is concerned?

It is expressed as a quantity of 135,000 metric tonnes, that is 1 million barrels.

Is that being maintained?

It is.

52.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the total tonnage of oil products shipped into Dublin from the 1st October, 1972, to 31st December, 1972, and for the same period in 1973.

I am informed by the Dublin Port and Docks Board that between 1st October, 1972, and 31st December, 1972, 677,799 tons of oil products were shipped into Dublin. For the same period in 1973 the figure was 644,613 tons.

In view of the figures which the Minister has just given for the last quarter of 1973, was there any real basis for the panic and crisis created by the Government because of the increased imports?

There were decreased imports. The imports were down. The figures I gave were 677,799 tons for 1972 and 644,612 tons for 1973. That does not take account of the growth in the meantime.

53.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the amount of crude oil imported from 1st to 31st January, 1974.

54.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the amount of crude oil imported from 1st January to 9th February, 1974.

55.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the amount of refined oil products imported from 1st January to 31st January, 1974, excluding products intended for use by the ESB and imports of naphtha by the Dublin gas company.

56.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the amount of refined oil products imported from the 1st January to 9th February, 1974, excluding products intended for use by the ESB and imports of naphtha by the Dublin gas company.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 53, 54, 55 and 56 together.

I understand from the Central Statistics Office that official statistics of oil imports for January, 1974, will not be available until March, 1974. These statistics are compiled on a monthly basis and it would not be practicable to give figures for part of a month.

I am informed by the Whitegate Refinery that imports of crude oil by that firm during the periods in question were:

In view of the fact that it takes about five weeks to transport, refine and distribute oil in this country, will the Minister say if multi-national oil companies are entitled to the colossal prices granted to them? Are they entitled to these increases on what they already had in stock before the 1st of January price increase in oil.

The Deputy's supplementary question does not seem to arise.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce answered that in the debate last week.

Arising further from the Minister's reply, is it not a fact that because of what was already in stock before the 1st January increase in the price of oil by the oil producing countries, the multi-national oil companies are now about to make about £6 million profit on those stocks?

Question No. 57.

This was the subject of a debate on the 12th February. It was an Adjournment debate requested by Deputy Barry. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, who has responsibility for prices, answered the Deputy at that time and pointed out that what was in stock at that date would do up to the 9th February and the increased price for petrol came in this morning, which is 21st February.

I appreciate that the Minister for Industry and Commerce replied in the manner indicated by the Minister for Transport and Power but everybody realises that it takes at least five weeks to transport oil from the oil producing nations and distribute it in this country.

That does not arise from the question asked.

The question I want to ask is, are the multi-national oil companies, the majors, entitled to make £6 million profit——

The Deputy must put down a question.

——on what they already had in storage in this country? Is this a fact, despite what the Minister for Industry and Commerce said in this House last week?

Question No. 57.

I think the people are entitled to know if it is a fact or not.

The Deputy must put down a question specifically to deal with that matter, then.

I put down a question with regard to imports. Some of the figures are not available but the Minister for Industry and Commerce last week misled this House, in my opinion, by saying they were entitled to these increases.

This is a matter of debate at the moment Question No. 57.

Again, I would like to ask the Minister if it is a fact or if it is not a fact——

The Chair is asking the Minister to answer Question No. 57.

——that the multi-national oil companies are now making £6 million profits on what they already had in stock, as a result of the increase.

I think the best advice I could give the Deputy is that if the multi-nationals are making those profits they will show up in their balance sheets at the end of this year and we can all have a go at them then.

Is it——

The Chair will not permit any further discussion. The Minister will answer Question No. 57.

One multi-national oil company returned a profit of £15,000 for consecutive years. That was the profit returned.

Question No. 57.

57.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he will ensure that circus vehicles will have a guaranteed quota of diesel oil.

The orders restricting deliveries of diesel oil also provide for certain minimum deliveries by oil wholesalers and distributors to persons who got deliveries from them in the period of six months ended 16th November, 1973. If a circus received deliveries in this way it would, therefore, be entitled to certain minimum deliveries under the orders.

The current orders restricting deliveries are in force until 31st March and I presume that circuses will not start their tours until after 1st April. I am hopeful that the oil situation will by then have shown further improvement and that the obtaining of reasonable supplies will not pose a very difficult problem for them. Should there be any great difficulty my Department would be glad to give every assistance possible on receipt of full information of the programme of the particular circus.

58.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if the reported decision of the United Kingdom Government to ration oil exports will have any effect on supplies to this country.

I take it the Deputy is referring to the United Kingdom legislation introduced in early December, 1973, subjecting the export of petroleum products to licensing.

There have been discussions with the British authorities about the impact of these restrictions on supplies of oil products to Ireland. They recognise that Britain and Ireland are parts of a single integrated market in which the oil companies maintain supplies to all their customers on an equal basis. They have agreed to licence exports to Ireland on a basis equivalent to the general level of supply in the whole market. While I have had reports of some delays and difficulties in connection with the issue of licences, the general flow of oil products at an equitable level has been maintained and I do not anticipate a change in this position.

May I ask the Minister when he was last in touch with the United Kingdom Government on this matter?

Last week.

Is the Minister satisfied that we will not be any worse off than we were in recent months or recent weeks?

Yes, I am quite satisfied.

The Minister is aware that some people controlling exports did not keep their contracts with people here?

I am, indeed, yes. There is a specific problem. I do not think I should refer to it in the House but I will explain it to Deputy Moore afterwards. There has been some difficulty in connection with one company. I think that is now resolved and there will not be any trouble in the future.

I just wanted to ask a supplementary question. Is the Minister satisfied that the petroleum imported into this country as premium petroleum and that in all cases petrol being sold in this country as premium petroleum is, in fact, what the distributor claims it to be?

That is a separate question.

I would like to ask the Minister if he is aware——

The Chair will not allow the supplementary question.

It is not my function anyway, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

But it would concern the Minister if persons were availing of this crisis to sell inferior petrol as premium!

It would concern the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

But purchasers of premium petrol are, in fact, thinking it is not of the quality.

Again, I must say to Deputy Molloy if he has any specific complaints, give them to me and I will have them investigated and find if they stand up to investigation or not.

The Minister does not seem to be concerned. He is looking to the Opposition to do his job.

No. I am looking for specific complaints against specific companies. There is no point in my going to a company and asking them, "Did you sell petrol or paraffin that is pink?" I want to know from a motorist who bought petrol that he considered inferior whom he bought it from and what brand it was. If I get that kind of complaint I will investigate it.

You have nobody checking.

I have had no complaints of that nature. It is not for my Department to check. The Deputy is being rather childish.

59.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the arrangements he has made with the new APCO oil refinery authorities for the preferential supply of products, if required, to meet the needs of this country.

It is understood that the APCO authorities are reviewing the refinery project in the light of the recent decision by the Minister for Local Government on their request for planning permission. If they decide to proceed with the construction of the refinery, discussions will be re-opened with the company on the question of stocks to be reserved to meet the needs of this country.

I take it from what the Minister has said that it is his intention to ensure that such a stock will be reserved for this country in the event of a situation like that arising?

Yes, it is.

I am sure the Minister is aware of Press publicity recently that stated otherwise.

That stated what?

That no such reservation had been made.

I did not know. I have not seen such publicity.

There was such publicity.

60.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power why no reply was sent to Deputy Callanan's letters referring to petrol and agricultural diesel.

My Department can trace only two letters from the Deputy regarding petrol or agricultural diesel oil—one dated 30th January, 1974 and the other dated 11th February, 1974. Both these letters have been answered. If the Deputy has any other inquiries to make, he might let me know and I shall gladly have them dealt with.

Since I wrote to the Department and said that I was putting down the question I got the two replies referred to. If the Minister will remember, he promised a letter, which I would prefer, dealing with the two questions together, relevant to my next question, to which I did not get a reply. It is about three months ago.

The Deputy wrote on 30th January, 1974. It was a request to have the case of a farm investigated in regard to diesel oil. That was received in the Department on the 4th February, 1974. I do not know when the Deputy got the reply. The other letter the Deputy wrote was received on the 14th and it was replied to the following day.

When I wrote about the diesel I got answers for the two diesel ones. When I said in my letter that I was putting down a question if I did not get an answer, I got the two answers referred to by the Minister.

The Deputy wrote on the 30th January. It arrived on the 4th February—five days later. I do not know why. The Deputy wrote again one week later and said he had not got a reply. I do not think that that is very reasonable.

It was not that that I was referring to.

The Deputy said, "if I do not get an answer I will raise it in the Dáil".

I referred to a letter I wrote to the Minister before that.

No. The Deputy did not write to me before that.

I did, Sir. I wrote to the Minister after he promised a letter about the matter. I wrote to the Minister some time after that. I have not got a copy of the letter.

After 30th January?

No. A long time before that. I would not put down a question because I did not get a reply in a fortnight. I went to the Minister personally——

I remember that. Deputy Hogan O'Higgins and the Deputy came to me and——

And the Minister said he would write.

I am sorry if I misled the Deputy. I understood he had written to my Department and had not got a reply.

I did. I wrote about the subject matter of Question No. 61. I wrote to the Minister personally and I got no reply. I still have not got a reply. The diesel ones to which the Minister is referring only came up in January.

I must apologise to the Deputy if he did write to me. I would naturally be upset if any Deputy of this House wrote in and was not replied to by my Department. But when his letter came a fortnight ago saying that he had not been replied to I had all the files of the Department checked and double checked, particularly those in my own personal office. There is no record there of a letter having been received from Deputy Callanan other than the letter he refers to about the diesel oil and the letter complaining that he had not been replied to. They are the only two letters in the Department. If he sent another one, I certainly apologise to him.

I can assure the Minister that I did.

Did the Minister look in the incinerator department. That is where all the complaints went.

61.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the steps he has taken with regard to a petrol company (name supplied) which has refused to supply a retailer (name supplied) with petrol on the ground that his tank was too small even though he was selling their product for a number of years.

I apologise to the Deputy. I was not aware of this case until receipt of the Deputy's question. I have now arranged with the oil company concerned that they will deliver appropriate supplies to the particular retailer. I must confess here that I did not realise that this is the same question about which Deputy Callanan spoke to me in the lobby about three months ago.

I thought that something had been done about it and I met the particular person about three weeks ago and he had not got a drop of petrol. He asked me what I had done about it and I told him that I had been speaking to the Minister. This is why I put down the other question. I would be pleased if the Minister would repeat the reply.

I have now arranged with the oil company concerned that they will deliver appropriate supplies to the particular retailer. I again apologies to Deputy Callanan for the mix up.

62.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he will make a statement regarding the present stocks of coal and the outlook for continuing supplies with reference to possible price fluctuations.

I understand that stocks of coal held by coal merchants are low at present. This is due to an increase in demand since the energy crisis arose in October, 1973, and difficulty in obtaining shipping to transport sufficient coal from Poland. Although there may be short-term difficulties, the position about supplies for the future seems to be reasonably satisfactory.

As virtually all our coal comes from abroad the importers must pay the going price which, as the Deputy is no doubt aware, has been substantially increased in recent weeks. It is not possible at this stage to give any reliable indication of future price trends.

The Minister has informed the House that stocks of coal at present are estimated to be low. It is a well-known fact that in the inflationary economy in which we are living at present price increases on this commodity in particular are happening quite regularly. The Minister gave the House an assurance now that stocks are low and one can assume from that that the next price increase in coal will go on to the stocks——

That has nothing to do with the question asked.

I want to ask the Minister who informed him that coal stocks were low. It is a well-known fact that importers of coal have been hoarding it, waiting for price increases, and have made substantial profits——

The Deputy is making a statement.

With the help of the Minister and the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

The Deputy does not mind who he hits or hurts.

I know who has been hit and hurt by the increases in the price of coal.

If the Deputy would wait until I come to the Industry and Commerce questions he will get the exact figures.

The Minister does not seem to be concerned with those price increases.

I have told the Deputy three times that prices are not the responsibility of the Department of Transport and Power. Surely he should know that.

63.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the current cost of producing one unit of electricity from (a) turf (b) water and (c) oil.

I am informed by the ESB that the current cost of producing one unit of electricity, in pence per kilowatt hour sent out from the generating stations, is as follows: From sod peat 1.11p; milled peat 0.81p; hydro 0.38p; oil at average cost of existing stocks of oil 0.88p; oil at current prices 1.33p.

64.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the reason for the rise in the cost of electricity.

The main reason for the rise in the cost of electricity is the increased cost of the oil required for its production.

Will the surcharge also be placed on the price of appliances purchased from the ESB?

It is on the cost of electricity, not of appliances.

65.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power whether he has considered taking into public ownership gas supply utilities in Dublin and other towns; or whether he is satisfied with the present operation of these companies.

I have not given consideration to this question nor am I satisfied that the present operation of the companies requires such measures.

In view of the fact that the Dublin Gas Company, during the fuel crisis, warned consumers of rationing which they had no authority to suggest and that it caused panic and alarm among the consuming public——

I am sorry, I cannot hear the Deputy.

I am concerned that the Dublin Gas Company warned consumers of possible rationing two or three months ago and figures revealed that there was a substantial increase in supplies of oil to this company in the three month period up to December. Will the Minister comment on that?

The Dublin Gas Company were in trouble about supplies of oil just before Christmas. They use a special type of oil called naphtha which has been in short supply and tending to become extremely dear for the last few years. In fact, at one stage before Christmas they were down to a couple of days' supply. At that stage additional supplies of naphtha became available to them, some of them at very dear prices, as a result of which they were able to postpone their decision to bring in rationing of gas in the city of Dublin.

Is the Minister aware that the reason for the rationing scare by the Dublin Gas Company was that certain multi-national oil companies who have contracted to supply naphtha to the gas company were trying to opt out of their contracts because they were reforming the naphtha into petrol in order to get a higher priced product?

No, I am not. I agree with the Deputy that one company which is a contractor to the gas company for naphtha were dissatisfied with the price they had negotiated, I think, six years ago and this question was resolved by arbitration in October before the scare came in December.

66.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he has received any complaints about undue delays in deliveries of coal supplies in Dublin city since the merger of a group of coal companies; and if there is any action he can take to relieve the hardship being caused by such delays.

67.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he is aware of the seemingly grave shortage of solid fuels in the Dublin area and the hardship being suffered by citizens trying to obtain these fuels; and if he will take appropriate steps to bring about an improvement in the situation.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 66 and 67 together.

Some complaints have been received in my Department in recent weeks about delays in deliveries of coal supplies in Dublin.

I understand that the delays in deliveries are due to increased demand since the energy crisis arose in October, 1973, difficulty in obtaining shipping to transport sufficient coal from Poland, an unofficial strike in December and exceptionally wet weather. The coal merchants concerned have assured me that they are doing their utmost to expedite deliveries within the limitations of the supplies available to them.

This question was tabled a considerable number of weeks ago. It has been suggested to me that this question of a merger between the Dublin coal distributing companies has had a very severe reaction on consumers who have recourse to these firms. I had complaints from people who had to wait four or five weeks before their needs were met.

On the whole question of mergers, is it desirable, in the public interest, that these should take place when it is quite obvious that it is a disadvantage to the consumer? It is significant that within the last week or two, because of the enormous increase in the price of coal, consumers are being satisfied. I would ask the Minister to comment on that.

Again, there is an answer to this question put to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. In regard to the merger of the Dublin coal merchants, this was done at the suggestion of the National Prices Commission about two or three years ago. They suggested that there was an awful lot of wastage of resources and men because of the fragmentation of the coal trade in Dublin. They suggested, at that time, there should be one yard and one set of deliveries. That suggestion was put to the then Minister for Industry and Commerce who raised no objections to it.

I should like to put forward a suggestion—like Deputy Callanan—that the Minister might possibly appoint a co-ordinating officer to try to bring some order into the chaos in Dublin at the moment. The old people of this city just cannot get coal, turf or any other solid fuel and I can assure the Minister that these people are suffering very markedly as a result.

I appreciate that what Deputy Moore says is quite correct. I have a lot of sympathy for the people in that position, especially as they would be buying regularly small lots of coal and turf. A number of Deputies in Dublin have contacted me about this. I hoped that the position, even a fortnight ago, would have improved so that there should have been no problem then. I agree that there certainly was a problem here from the middle of December until the end of January as regards coal.

Question No. 68.

One last point. Perhaps in this reorganisation the Minister might try to ensure that the small bellman will not be crushed by his big brother taking over this whole industry. Perhaps the Minister might ensure that these smaller men will still earn their living out of it.

The price of fuel has gone beyond the reach of the ordinary poor people of this city and not alone that but they cannot even get delivery of it.

Question No. 68.

If the Deputy puts in further questions, I will be glad to answer them. We have gone through 68 questions only in over two hours.

Question No. 68.

68.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he is satisfied that major coal importers have not been withholding deliveries pending the recent price increase; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

69.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the quantity of coal stock-piled in the yards of coal importers at the time of the recent coal price increase.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 68 and 69 together.

I have not got precise information as to the stocks of coal held by coal importers at the time of the recent price increase but I am aware that for the past few months stocks have been generally low because of increased demand since the commencement of the energy crisis and shipping difficulties. There was a large backlog of orders on the date of the price increase and I understand from Irish Coal Importers Ltd., who undertake the bulk of our coal imports, that coal ordered before the date of the price increase was not affected by the increase. I have no information about smaller firms.

Arising out of the Minister's reply, I want to tell him I am not very satisfied with the answer he has given. I want to tell him that I believe the position is——

Does the Deputy want to ask a question?

Yes. The Minister seems to be adopting a very lackadaisical attitude to this whole question, which is serious.

No, I am not.

Supplies were withheld, as was explained by my colleague——

The Deputy is making a statement. The Chair is pointing out to the House that there are over 400 questions and we are now at Nos. 68 and 69 only.

My question refers to the withholding of coal supplies. The home assistance officer in Galway county——

The Deputy is making a statement.

——could not supply an old age pensioner with his free fuel supply because of a shortage. Everybody in the area knew there were large stocks being withheld pending a price increase.

The Deputy is giving information to the House.

The Minister has not shown any concern.

Under the free fuel scheme, turf must be supplied——

Coal.

I want to ask a supplementary question on question No. 69. Why it is that details are not available to the Minister of the stockpile of coal in coal importers' yards at the date of the price increase? Would he not agree with me that the figure was somewhere in the region of 200,000 tons?

Again, the Deputy is giving information to the House.

If the Minister multiplies that by nine, it is almost 2 million tons.

This question was directed to me. Some of this may involve the Department of Industry and Commerce.

I am going to insist on the rights of the Chair in this matter. The Chair has some rights in trying to conduct the business of the House. We have not even got to Question No. 70 yet out of a total of over 400 questions.

Why is it, Minister, that this information is not available? Are there more statistics?

Question No. 70. Deputies are making statements.

Stocks and price increases are matters for the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I am answering his questions here today and I have this information in his file. If the Deputy wishes, I shall search through it and find it for him.

Do that and do not wait until 4.30 p.m. when we will be gone.

It was not I who delayed the House.

The Minister has indicated to the House that he is prepared to——

The Deputy will allow the Minister to answer Question No. 70.

The Minister has indicated to the House that he is prepared to answer questions——

The Chair will continue with the order of questions on the Order Paper. The Chair will carry out the Order of Business of the House in the way in which it is laid out. Question No. 70.

70.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power if, in the changed situation arising from the increased cost and scarcity of fuels for energy and the adverse effect of these costs on the balance of payments, he will direct that further investigations be made into the use of "crow" coal in the Arigna coalfields for the production of energy, in view of the fact that previous investigations showed that such use was technologically possible but not economically feasible at the time of the investigations.

The ESB are reexamining the possibilities of utilising the "crow" coal deposits at Arigna for generation of electricity and will submit their recommendation to me in due course.

71.

asked the Minister for Transport and Power the steps he proposes to take to deal with the exceedingly short supply of coal in some areas.

I am informed by the principal importers that in recent months coal has been in short supply due mainly to very heavy demand, shipping delays and the British miners' industrial action. The situation has improved as a result of substantial imports of Polish coal. Supplies should now be more generally available.

Is the Minister aware that the less well-off in our society— the old age pensioners—were unable for a number of weeks to obtain their weekly cwt of coal?

Indeed, I am.