asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if in respect of Directive 159 he will indicate the herd size a dairy farmer should have in order to become a development farmer and to reach the required labour income target.

16.

asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if in respect of Directive 159 he will indicate the herd size a farmer with single suckling cows should have in order to become a development farmer and to reach the required labour income target.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 15 and 16 together.

Net labour income will depend on a number of different factors which will vary from farm to farm. It is not possible, therefore, to say that any particular herd size will enable a particular income target to be achieved in all cases.

Would the Minister not agree that 35 to 40 would be an adequate dairy herd to comply with Directive 159 and that 60 to 70 would be an adequate number of suckling cows? I did not hear the Minister's reply and I would be obliged if he would repeat it.

Net labour income will depend on a number of different factors which will vary from farm to farm. It is not possible, therefore, to say that any particular herd size will enable a particular income target to be achieved in all cases.

Arising out of Question No. 15, could the Minister say what, on average, would be the size of a dairy herd that would classify a farmer as a development farmer?

That is something that I would not wish to be pinned down on because a lot of factors enter into this. First, one has to take into consideration the capacity of a particular farmer as a manager. Secondly, one must take into consideration the quality of his land and, thirdly, the quality of the cows. These are factors which occurred to me without going into the matter in any great detail. It would be difficult, and dangerous, to put a herd size on it.

Would the Minister give us an average? We are not going to pin him down on anything. We want an honest opinion of an average figure at this stage.

If I gave my own average I would be pinned down on this at every crossroads. I know that only too well and I refuse to be pinned down.

If we give the Minister an assurance that he will not be pinned down on anything he says today will he give us that average?

We cannot have an argument about the matter.

I wish to finish my supplementary. Would the Minister give us an estimate or an average on which his political neck will not depend?

Deputy Collins comes from a dairy farming area and he knows the incomes of the various sizes of farms and he should not have to ask me this type of question. He has as good an idea as I have.

The Minister is afraid to say what he knows very well to be true.

While I agree that the size could vary from farm to farm the Minister could give an approximate guideline. I do not think he, or I, would like to give it because we would be frightening too many people.

Too many people are being frightened by being given the wrong story, unfortunately.

Did the people get the wrong story on the wealth tax?

17.

asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries the position of part-time farmers under Directive 159 and the proportion of their income that can be derived from non-agricultural sources.

Directive 159 requires that in order to come into the development category, a farmer must have farming as his main occupation in the sense that it occupies at least 50 per cent of his time and yields 50 per cent of his income. In addition, on completion of his farm plan, the farm must be capable of yielding the full comparable income for at least one labour unit. Beyond that, up to 20 per cent of the earned income of the farm may come from non-farm activity.

For transitional farmers, there is no provision either in the directive or in the farm modernisation scheme as to the amount of time or income that may be attributed to non-farm activity. Part-time farmers will thus be eligible for the aids open to this category so long as they continue to work their farms and to get any significant part of their income from farming.

In normal circumstances, it is unlikely that part-time farmers will come into the commercial category.

Is the Minister satisfied that the farm modernisation scheme as presently designed is fully suited to Irish agriculture?

I am quite happy that it is suited to Irish agriculture.

In view of the fact that the Minister cannot implement the farm modernisation scheme because of the chaos existing in his Department would he not consider the reintroduction of the scheme of grants for farm buildings and farm improvement that existed prior to 1st February?

That is a different matter.

We are in the same position to implement this scheme as we were to implement the old schemes. We are adopting the same methods and advising the farmers to send their applications to the Department.

Except that the Minister has not got the applications from the farmers.

That is up to the farmers.

Are directors of large firms or people who came from England or Germany included in this? How are they to be excluded?

They are excluded because they are expected to get a fairly substantial portion of their income from farming. They are supposed to be working their farms. Hobby farmers, such as described by the Deputy, are excluded.

Is it not a fact that in order to avail of the full grants one must get half his income from meat, either sheep or beef?

That is not so for the transitional farmer.

I am talking about the development farmer.

He can start off with 50 per cent of his income coming from outside the farm but he must finish up with the comparable income for at least one labour unit. When he goes beyond that, 20 per cent of his total income may come from outside the farm.

I am not referring to what he gets outside the farm but to what he gets on the farm. Is it true that 50 per cent of that must be from meat sales?

That is not so.

That is in the directive.

I wonder if I could ask one question. What is intended to happen to the farmer who does not even qualify under the terms of the transition, the men who will be below the 50 per cent?

There is no such problem. Every farmer is entitled to grant aid. I have made this point before.

It is the level of grant aid the Minister should spell out, what the farmer is eligible for and for how long.

50 per cent and 30 per cent.