asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries when the EEC grants will be paid to the smallholders in the disadvantaged areas; and the arrangements in this matter.

I shall be making an announcement in the matter very soon.

The Minister said "very soon". How soon?

Is the Deputy asking me whether it will be weeks, or months or years?

Days or weeks.

I am saying a matter of weeks.

And, maybe, forever.

Would the Minister say if it will be before the House adjourns?

I will give some consideration to that request.

3.

asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if County Clare is designated a disadvantaged area.

4.

asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if County Galway is designated a disadvantaged area.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 and 4 together.

Both County Clare and County Galway are included in the list of areas designated for the purposes of the EEC Directive.

From what I can gather, portions of County Clare and County Galway.

That is for headage payments. The complete counties are not in, but they are in the disadvantaged areas.

Both Clare and Galway are in the disadvantaged areas?

Yes.

Theoretically they are in but, practically, for the sake of the payments, they are not designated in toto. Only portions of the counties are designated. Unless you are designated you are not in for what counts, namely, the special payments.

The Minister said they are in.

I explained to Deputy Callanan before that in Germany, for instance, only one-third of the designated area is qualified for headage payment. In Ireland two-thirds is qualified.

Is it not the case that the map given by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to the Commission in Brussels delineating the areas we would like to have benefit under the disadvantaged areas scheme was subsequently doctored by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and areas greatly reduced because this is a contributory scheme and 75 per cent of the grants and aids must be provided by the national governments and, for that reason, the Irish Government deliberately cut down the areas deriving benefit from the disadvantaged areas scheme, despite the map that had originally been given to the Commission in Brussels?

I cannot prevent Deputy Gibbons from making statements like this, but they are completely without foundation.

Deputy Gibbons is correct.

Tell me in what way they are incorrect.

They are completely without foundation.

I was quite satisfied when the Minister told me both counties were designated but I gather now portions of counties are designated and I am wondering who drew up the areas in this haphazard way.

Inside the counties there are areas not as handicapped as other areas and, because of the degree of handicap, we are compelled not to include them in the full range of benefit.

How do you assess the handicap?

Who compelled the Minister?

The EEC Commission. We had representatives of the Commission working here.

It is all very haphazard.

I am calling Question No. 5.

For the purpose of clarification, may I ask the Minister is it right that particular farmers within the designated areas whose incomes are at a certain level do not qualify?

That is right.

So certain areas within the designated areas will not qualify.

Within the areas included in the disadvantaged areas.

I have called Question No. 5. There are several Deputies offering but we cannot debate this matter now.

It is very important.

It is and so are all the other matters on the Order Paper.

What advantage will these areas get?

The development farmers will get an extra 10 per cent.

What about the nondeveloping farmers?

How many development farmers are there in the 12 western counties? If you are not designated you will be out. You could count the few that will be designated on the fingers of one hand. The Minister mentioned Brussels. These areas were designated by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, we do not know by whom and certainly not in consultation with any of the counties concerned.

These areas had to be agreed with the Commission and the arguments went on for 12 months.

The Minister could change them tomorrow, if he wanted to.

No, we could not.

Question No. 5. I have given Deputies a great deal of latitude. The Chair must be obeyed. Question No. 5.

5.

asked the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries if he will consider including the electoral divisions of Ferbane and Birr, County Offaly, for benefits under the special scheme for disadvantaged areas.

The areas so far designated under the EEC Directive on Disadvantaged Areas correspond broadly to the Western Counties which have, traditionally, been regarded as the handicapped areas of this country. The only addition to the west has been the inclusion of mountain sheep areas elsewhere. The stringent criteria laid down for the designation of areas will make it difficult to secure the acceptance by the EEC of further areas. However, if a case can be made in respect of the areas mentioned by the Deputy, I will have it examined.

Is the Minister aware that Offaly County Committee of Agriculture arranged a meeting with all farming interests in the Ferbane electoral area and are in the process of presenting a case to the Minister?

I am so aware.

Is the Minister further aware that this particular area, the Ferbane and Birr electoral area, suffers from almost all the disadvantages the counties west of the Shannon suffer from and does the Minister not think a special case should be made for these areas?

All I can say is that it was not an area included initially as disadvantaged, but we are prepared to look at it to see if it can come within the terms of the directive.

I wonder could the Minister inform us how many development farmers there are in the area referred to in the question.

I have not got that information.

Is the Minister aware that the majority of farmers in this area will come within the category and qualifications laid down by his Department?

I cannot say that and, with all respect to the Deputy, neither can he. This is a very detailed measurement of a large number of things. I do not think any of us can stand up in this House and say that an area definitely qualifies.

Unless this portion of Offaly is designated a disadvantaged area, it is not much use to us, except as developing farmers. That is my argument about the West. We are supposed to be in but——

The Deputy is broadening the scope of the question. Question No. 6.

The Deputy is complaining because farmers who are well off and doing well will not get headage payments. We want to spend this money in the poorest areas of the West and elsewhere.

There are three developing farmers in my area.