asked the Minister for Health the number and the name of each residential and day centre catering for the mentally handicapped in this country; and the number of child and adult mentally handicapped in each institution.

There are 43 residential centres and 27 day centres. Details of them and of the numbers of child mentally handicapped, that is those under 16 years of age, and adult mentally handicapped, that is those over 16 years of age, in each area are set out in a tabular statement which I propose with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle to circulate with the Official Report.

Following is the statement:

I Special Residential Centres for the Mentally Handicapped

In addition to the above there was a total of 27 hostels catering for 121 children (under 16 years) and 104 adults (over 16 years) on 31st December, 1975. There were also 2,504 mentally handicapped persons in residence in psychiatric hospitals operated by health boards and 642 in geriatric homes.

II Day Centres for the Mentally Handicapped

Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell the House how many people are involved? Surely the tabular statement is not so complicated that he cannot tell us the total?

The Deputy will appreciate how many people are involved entirely. Account must be taken of those who are in residential care at the moment and who are over 16 years as well as those under 16 years of age.

Yes, the child mentally handicapped and the adult mentally handicapped.

The tabular statement contains five pages——

I did not realise that it contained five pages. I appreciate the obvious trouble the Parliamentary Secretary took in this matter and I look forward to reading the information given by him.

19.

asked the Minister for Health if he is aware of the serious and urgent problems facing the adult mentally handicapped in the provision of residential and day centres; and the action he intends to take in the matter.

I am fully aware of the present shortage of facilities for mentally handicapped adults. There are approximately 950 extra residential and day places for adults at various stages of building and planning at the moment. These will become available as quickly as financial resources permit. A number of other schemes have been proposed by health boards and voluntary bodies and are at present under consideration.

Quite clearly the Parliamentary Secretary is aware of the urgent need for places for the adult mentally handicapped. It is all very well to tell us that building and planning programmes are going ahead but it appears these programmes have been stopped because of the lack of finance. Is that what the Parliamentary Secretary is telling the House?

I assure the House that little of the planning stage work has been stopped for want of finance. Some other things have been stopped because of the lack of finance but I have mentioned them.

It appears the kitty is bare and there is no money for this work. I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to ask the Minister for Finance and Health to give priority to the continuation of this planning and building programme for the mentally handicapped.

We must proceed by way of questions.

It must be accepted that this is an area that should have high priority——

The Deputy is continuing to ignore the ruling of the Chair. Has he a question?

Will the Parliamentary Secretary ask his immediate superior, the Minister for Health, to give money to institute this programme immediately? Is that not a reasonable proposition?

There is another question later and I will be able to say something on the matter.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary any information in relation to Cheeverstown and Loughlinstown, two centres in which we have a special interest? Will he indicate the current stage of development in these two areas?

While the Deputy may have an interest in those two centres, the Minister for Health and I have an interest in all centres throughout the country. As Parliamentary Secretary I have always stated that my priority has been with regard to the mentally handicapped and I am sure Deputy Andrews will agree with this. Later on I may be able to give some information to the Deputy.

I accept the bona fides of the Parliamentary Secretary in this respect. We are all on the same wavelength——

This is not in order. This is Question Time. I am calling Question No. 20.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary say when the money will be available?

The Deputy has asked that question already.

I have not received much assistance from the Parliamentary Secretary.

20.

asked the Minister for Health the annual cost of maintaining Bawnmore, Limerick; the reason for the delay in making it available; the total cost of the complex; and the use for which it is intended.

The cost of operating Bawnmore at full capacity was estimated by the Order to be about £646,000 a year. As I indicated in reply to a question by Deputy O'Malley on 20th October, it has not been possible, due to current economic difficulties, to make the necessary finances available to enable the Bawnmore complex to be opened. The total cost of the complex is about £1.85 million. Bawnmore is intended to provide residential care for 150 moderately and severely mentally handicapped adolescents and adults.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell us how long Bawnmore has been vacant?

Bawnmore was officially handed over from the contractor around last September.

Therefore, it is vacant now for one year. Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell the House whether in that year £650,000 has been expended on maintaining Bawnmore in its empty state? Is the Parliamentary Secretary telling the House it is costing £650,000 to maintain Bawnmore as it stands at the moment, or is it intended to expend that amount of money when it becomes operative?

I thought the Deputy would be able to assess the position better than that.

My information is that the cost of maintaining Bawnmore empty is in the region of £150,000 a year. Would he confirm or deny that?

The Deputy is imparting information rather than seeking it.

The Minister told the House the exact position.

I do not accept the Minister's assessment of Bawnmore in any circumstances.

The Deputy does not accept mine or the Minister's?

It is a disgrace.

If the Deputy has a question to put, at least he should rise in his place.

The Parliamentary Secretary has given us a figure of £646,000 in relation to the operation of this hospital for one year. Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that a group of parents in the Limerick area who are keenly interested in this institution have estimated a figure of £70,000 as being sufficient to open this hospital on a planned or phased basis? Is he further aware that the cost of security alone of the building at present is about £30,000 a year? If the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Health could give an additional £40,000 to this institution, then it could be opened immediately on a phased basis.

Further arising out of the Parliamentary Secretary's reply, may I, as a member of the Mid-Western Health Board ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Health if he is prepared to meet a deputation, who will know what they are speaking about, from the mid-Western Health Board, the Brothers of Charity and members of the parents committee, within the next week or ten days? We will resolve this problem, not by the Fianna Fáil methods——

Has the Deputy a question to ask?

——and relieve the unfortunate people concerned.

If the Deputy was so concerned, why did he not put down a parliamentary question about it?

Because I do business in my own way and you can blow and fuss the Fianna Fáil way. We get our business done, not like Fianna Fáil——

There is no need to engender heat into this.

It is unfortunate that the plight of the mentally handicapped should be the subject of any political discussion here. However, I want to tell Deputy Collins and Deputy Andrews that the figures they have now given to me were also given to the Minister last week on the 20th October. They are not quite correct. The Minister said last week that he had agreed to receive a deputation from the interested parties in Limerick to discuss with them anything that could be done to resolve the plight of at least some of the mentally handicapped.

21.

asked the Minister for Health the amount of moneys made available to the Eastern Health Board in the current financial year for the mentally handicapped as compared to last year; and if he is aware of the inadequate provision of moneys for the area of mentally handicapped generally.

The amount expended by or on behalf of the board for the mentally handicapped was £2.6 million in 1975 and £3 million in 1976.

The board, in the years in question, also incurred expenditure on the provision of accommodation in its psychiatric hospitals for about 800 adults and children. No separate figures are available for the amount of expenditure involved. It is estimated, however, to be of the order of £1.5 million in 1975 and £1.8 million in 1976.

The total expenditure on mental handicap services thus increased from £4.1 million in 1975 to £4.8 million in 1976.

I do not accept that there has been an inadequate provision of finance for the mental handicap services generally. There has been a progressive expansion of these services over the years and this is reflected in the growth of expenditure on them. In 1966-67 it was about £3 million for the entire country. For 1976 it is estimated that the total expenditure will have increased to £19 million.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary give us some estimate of the decrease in the value of money between 1966 and 1976?

That is for the Statistics Office.

The reply he gave us to that question is totally unrelated to those he gave us in previous questions. If the money is so adequate, why can the building and planning programmes not continue? On the one hand, he says there is no money and then on the other hand he says there is so much money——

Can we proceed by way of question and not by argument?

I said already that there is no lack of planning provision, that it is only a question of proceeding when money becomes available. I have been straight, like the Minister, in saying the money is not available.

Nobody questions the Parliamentary Secretary's honesty, but we would like him to be consistent.