andMr. Keaveney asked the Minister for Agriculture if he is aware that OAP headage grant applicants are being queried by his Department as to the amounts of their pensions; and if he will state the purpose of this.

Applicants in receipt of pensions are being queried as to the nature of their pensions but not as to the amount. The reason for this is that expenditure on grants made to persons enjoying certain types of retirement pensions are not eligible for reimbursement from EEC funds and must be segregated when claims are being prepared for submission to Brussels.

This is an extraordinary situation. I question this matter as to the fine distinction that the Minister makes between seeking what sources the pensions come from and not the amounts. Where are the EEC regulations or regulations within the Minister's Department that require this? Why has it started this year? What sort of a gimmick is it? Old people with pensions and some land and a certain amount of stock are being put in a quandary about this.

I appreciate the Deputy's concern. I was as concerned when I heard this question was being asked of old people because I can understand how upset they might get. Article 6 of EEC Directive 268 under which the headage schemes operate, permits the participation of farmers on retirement pensions. Article 15 of the same directive precludes the reimbursement from Community funds in respect of payments made to such applicants. The reason for this is that, in general, retired persons are not likely to be actively farming especially those retired from agriculture. In many cases the undertaking to continue farming for five years might not have much significance. Apparently in order to make a claim from Brussels justly and properly they have to segregate the type of pension it happens to be. That is the only reason for it. I must assure the Deputy that it holds no fear for the pensioners.

Why has this matter only arisen this year?

Is the Minister referring to the recoupment of headage grants or the retirement pension?

The headage grant.

What has the old age pension to do with the headage grant?

That is what I am trying to find out.

I have just read that for the Deputy.

I do not follow it.

It is an EEC regulation that there is no reimbursement if it is a certain type of pension.

There is no reimbursement of the headage grant if a man is in receipt of old age pension?

Yes.

That is nonsense.

When did that arise?

I only became aware of it very recently and I asked the same question as the Deputy and these are the answers I got.

How did we get by without it in previous years if the requirement was there? Surely we should have taken our cue from the fact that they had no information and have given them no information this year?

Has it something to do with farm retirement scheme?

No.

It is purely the old age pension?

Yes.

Question No. 27, please. Deputy Callanan, one final question.

I know that the Minister is aware that this question put the fear of God into the hearts of old people. Arising from the reply to Deputy Blaney, does it mean that there will be no reimbursement from the EEC fund if grants are paid?

Yes.

As the Minister is aware there are a lot of farmers in disadvantaged areas in receipt of old age pensions. Does that mean that the grant coming from the EEC will be a lot less than it appears on paper?

It will be less to the extent that if people are retired from agriculture there is no reimbursement from the EEC for headage grants.

Who determines that they are retired?

If they were retired from agriculture they would not be applying for headage grants.

I suppose retirement pension is the only thing that decides that they are retired. They never really retire from agriculture.

Question No. 27.

How can they get a headage grant if they are retired from agriculture? The Minister will have to come back on this.

One final supplementary.

I cannot give any other explanation than the one given in Article 6 and Article 15.

If applicants for such headage grants receive an inquiry about the nature of their pensions and they do not reply, what is the score?

Obviously if they do not reply the Department do not know whether they are in a category where there is reimbursement. It is purely for making the claim to Brussels.

Next question please.

Order.

Would the Minister make a statement about it?

I have made a statement.

It is very confusing. The Minister has not cleared it up.

Question No. 27.

It has nothing to do with the payment of grants. They will be paid anyway.