asked the Minister for Education the pupil/teacher ratio in each of the primary schools in Sligo town and county and County Leitrim for the school years 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977.

The information requested by the Deputy is set out in the form of a tabular statement which with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I will have circulated with the Official Report. Following is the statement:

County Sligo

30/9/73—30/9/76

*Sligo town schools

†Special schools—not considered relevant

County Leitrim

30/9/73—30/9/76.

*19360 Opened 7/9/76.

†19365 Opened 18/2/74.

‡19423 Opened 10/11/74.

3.

asked the Minister for Education the pupil/teacher ratio in each of the post-primary schools in Sligo town and county and County Leitrim for the school years 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1977.

The information requested by the Deputy in the case of the comprehensive school, Manor-hamilton, is as follows: 1973-74 15, 1974-75 16, 1975-76 14, 1976-77 14.

In the case of vocational schools it is not possible to give the information because teachers are appointed for the vocational education committee area concerned and are not specifically assigned to individual schools.

In the case of secondary schools the total staff employed is a matter for the individual school manager, the Department's concern being with the number of teachers who are paid incremental salary. It would not, accordingly, be in accordance with normal practice to furnish details in regard to individual schools.

Is the Minister saying that this kind of information, for all the discussion that goes on about pupil/teacher ratio is not available in his Department?

We have it in the comprehensive schools but they are directly under the Department. In the case of the vocational school I cannot say whether it is assigned to any one particular school because teachers are all employed by the VEC in the area. In the case of secondary schools I cannot give information about individual schools. It has not been the practice to reveal this information because they are private schools.

When the question is asked the information should be given on such an important matter.

It is a long-standing custom in this regard, not initiated by me, that this information is not given.

How then can the Minister state that there is a drop in the pupil/teacher ratio?

I do not see how one follows on the other.

Surely the Minister can give this information.

This is leading to argument.

I would say that on the basis of total teachers employed and total number of pupils under them.

That is the kind of information I would be looking for.

The Deputy wanted it for vocational schools and secondary schools. It is not the custom to give it for secondary schools.

Is it not on the basis of pupils attending vocational schools or secondary schools that the Minister allows the schools to employ additional staff?

Yes, but the Deputy asked me in the case of each secondary school and we do not give that information.

Why?

Because in theory they are private schools and I do not give information about private schools.

We are having repetition.

There has been no drop, and the Minister is trying to cover up.

This has been going on for years.

Would it not be possible in the case of a specific area like that to obtain from the schools concerned permission to take up these figures to the House? I am quite sure that some schools would be willing to give that information because it would be an argument in their favour. Would the Minister ignore precedent and change the format of an answer like that for them?

I do not think so, because even though one area might be unwilling to have this information revealed, the fact that it was revealed in that area would bring pressure to bear on other areas. One area could be willing to do it and we would not have uniformity for all areas.

Would the Minister agree that, because of protests made at teachers' conferences and by parents associations about the pupil/ teacher ratio, it would be in the interests of the school to reveal the pupil/teacher ratio?

The pupil/teacher ratio in any individual school is very easily made up by the people in that school.