asked the Minister for Justice if he will establish an all-party committee to inquire into conditions in this country's prisons including the maximum security prison in Portlaoise.

32.

asked the Minister for Justice if he will establish a prison's visiting committee comprised of members of the Oireachtas interested in such matters, to visit and report from time to time on the conditions therein.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, propose to take Questions Nos. 31 and 32 together. I am not satisfied that formal arrangements of the kind mentioned in these questions are necessary or useful. Visiting committees are appointed to the prisons and places of detention under the Prisons (Visiting Committees) Act, 1925, and I am satisfied that the committees are performing their duties conscientiously.

Moreover, I have invited the leaders of Fine Gael and Labour to nominate members of their parliamentary parties who would receive an invitation from me to visit any of the institutions. This arrangement should go a long way towards assisting in the House informed and balanced discussion of prison affairs.

I have not heard the reply.

I beg the Deputy's pardon but again the fault is not on my part. I am sure the Deputy will accept that there must be some problem with the amplification.

Yes, but now that the Minister is in power can he not arrange to have the problem rectified?

I can hardly be blamed for that problem. However, I shall repeat the answer:

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 31 and 32 together.

I am not satisfied that formal arrangements of the kind mentioned in these questions are necessary or useful. Visiting committees are appointed to the prisons and places of detention under the Prisons (Visiting Committees) Act, 1925, and I am satisfied that the committees are performing their duties conscientiously.

Moreover, I have invited the leaders of Fine Gael and Labour to nominate members of their parliamentary parties who would receive an invitation from me to visit any of the institutions. This arrangement should go a long way towards assisting in the House informed and balanced discussion of prison affairs.

Would the Minister not agree that there are a number of us here who are Independent Deputies and that there is no reason for us not being given an opportunity of visiting these prisons? So far as I am concerned it must be 25 years now since I first expressed an interest in the degrading conditions within our prisons. The Minister is aware of this because there are letters from me to his predecessor on the file. Why should we not be treated in the same way as members of parties?

In the meantime the Deputy was in the Fianna Fail party.

Not only that but also he was a member of a party that formed part of the last Government during whose term of office I was refused permission to visit an empty prison.

I am sure there are a number of Deputies who would like to visit the prisons but visits must take place in an orderly fashion. I consider what I am doing in this regard to be right and proper and when the members of the political parties of this House have visited the prisons I shall see whether I can facilitate people like Deputy Browne who are individual Members.

Can the Minister give any reason for denying Independent Deputies their constitutional rights as elected Members? I visited Portlaoise prison first in 1948.

I do not doubt that.

In view of the allegations that have been made during the past year and having regard to the fact that the Minister has extended to the editors of the national newspapers the facilities that he now proposes to extend to us, would he not consider that an all-party committee is necessary at this stage, to include Members of his own party as well as Members of the Opposition, in order to allay the fears that have been raised in the public media in regard to prisons?

I am glad that the Deputy saw fit to indicate that these fears did not arise overnight. I am quite satisfied that the type of work being carried out by the visiting committees is the type of work for which they were appointed and that they are carrying out their duties successfully. I am satisfied too that in the interest of having informed discussion in this House the Leaders of the two Opposition parties have been asked to nominate representatives to visit the prisons, and that includes all prisons.

Is it not the position that the people the Minister is inviting to visit the prisons are the very same people whom he condemned for their attitude to prisons and the care of prisoners during the past four years? Why should they condemn the present conditions when they did not do it for the last four years?

May I say to Deputy Browne that he is not the only Deputy in this assembly who has a conscience?

That is a stupid remark. What has that to do with it? Is not what I said a fact?

It is not a fact. The Deputy is wrong.

Could I ask a question?

A last supplementary question.

Could I ask the Minister how many visitors he would envisage and what type of invitation he is now extending formally to the House?

I am not extending formally any invitation to the House. I suggest to the Deputy that he have a word with his party Leader on the matter.

How many people is the Minister talking about? How many Deputies and Senators would he propose to permit to visit the prison?

I suggest to the Leader of the Fine Gael Party that two members of his party——

Paddy Cooney, that is good.

That remark is uncalled for. Might I be allowed to finish and say that I ask the Leader of the Fine Gael Party to nominate two spokesmen who are fronting me, as it were, and I ask the Leader of the Labour Party to nominate his spokes-person, who is fronting for the Labour Party.

Cruise-O'Brien.

May I ask the Minister whether such visitors will be allowed to communicate with prisoners?

That is a separate question.

We are straying from the question now.

Regarding visits to institutions by Members of the Oireachtas, would I be right in interpreting the powers of the present visiting committee as including the power to grant such visits to members of the public provided they would take into account the good order of the institution? Would I be right in saying there is not as great reason to be concerned about access to prisons as it might appear and that visiting committees have the power to grant such visits?

That is a separate question again.

33.

asked the Minister for Justice whether he has inquired into the allegations about the alleged brutalising conditions under which prisoners are maintained in Portlaoise Prison; and if he is satisfied as to their validity or otherwise.

I have visited the prison to see conditions for myself and I have invited newspaper editors to visit it and other prisons and places of detention. Some of their reports have already been published.

There are people who believe that any prison is, of its very nature, demoralising if not worse. I believe, however, that the conditions obtaining in Portlaoise, while not ideal, are as humane as the circumstances permit, given on the one hand the physical limitations of the prison and, on the other hand, the need to prevent escapes. Some modifications—I do not claim that they were anything but minor ones—were recently made and the position is being kept under review.

In view of the fact that the last major prison was built in, I think, 1870, has the Minister any intention of introducing enlightened, up-to-date, humane legislation in respect of prisons generally?

I tell the Deputy that I am on public record as saying that I believe that prisoners are human beings and must be treated as such. I propose to follow that line of thinking—

What does that mean?

——by doing what-ever is necessary to see to it that that is so.

A new law is needed to reform the prison system. Has the Minister any intention of introducing modern, up-to-date, humane legislation in respect of our out-dated, degrading prisons?

That is a repetition of questions already asked. I am calling Question No. 34.

The Minister is a prisoner himself of his Department. It happened very quickly.

34.

asked the Minister for Justice if he will issue a clear instruction to the authorities of prisons and places of detention that they must not inhibit or restrict in any way privileged communications between client and lawyer.

I am satisfied that persons in custody have free and open access to legal advisers at all reasonable times, though certain restrictions are in force in respect of a very small number of lawyers.

35.

asked the Minister for Justice the number of members of the Garda Síochána at present on duty within Portlaoise Prison; and when it proposed to terminate such duties.

For security reasons I must decline to say how many members are on duty at Portlaoise Prison or when this duty is likely to be terminated.