asked the Minister for Education the measures that are being taken to reduce class sizes in primary schools.

23.

asked the Minister for Education when he proposes to reduce the pupil/teacher ratio in national schools; by how much the ration will be reduced; and the means he proposes to employ.

With the permission of lthe Ceann Comhairle I propose to take Questions Nos. 22 and 23 together. The Fianna Fáil election manifesto undertook to treat the reduction of the pupil/teacher ratio in primary schools as a top priority, particularly in disadvantaged areas, and immediately to set about reducing all classes to 40 with a final objective of 32. The Deputies will be aware of the proposals which have already been made in this matter and the difficulties which have arisen. I shall be making a further statements on this at an early date.

Is the Minister now accepting the fact that, in spite of this pladge in the manifesto, there will be no unexpected reduction in the pupil/ teacher ratio in primary schools this year?

The Minister is at present trying to get teachers trained who will reduce the pupil/teacher ratio.

Can the Minister tell us whether these suitably trained teachers will be in the schools, at the very latest, at the beginning of next year and whether he has now completely abandoned any hope of getting them in this year?

The Deputy will realise as time goes on that the Minister does not abandon things easily and he will, at the very latest, have them in the schools at the beginning of the next academic year.

My difficulty is that there are some later question in respect of the Minister's old plan. Has the Minister an alternative plan to the emergency one he introduced in respect of the attempt to provide courses for graduates so that they might help him in his attempts to reduce the size of classes? Has he any other proposals? Can he say when he will be in a position to make those proposals public? When he says "a short time" what does he mean? Does he mean weeks, Months years?

I am working on the plan about which the Deputy makes the inquiries. It will be within the very, very near future.

Has the Minister made any contact with or given any explanation to the special graduate teachers he recruited and whom I understand do not now know where they are going or when they will get employment?

I am very glad the Deputy asked that supplementary question because a newspaper report indicated that I had not met any of those trainee graduates. The report is wrong; I did meet them and I will have further contacts with them in the near future.

Has the Minister given them any indication as to when they will be able to get some remuneration? Is the Minister aware that he is under a moral obligation to employ those people? They are entitled to an undertaking on the part of the Minister that this will be forthcoming.

In answer to the Deputy I want to say that the words "moral obligation" were those I used when speaking to the representatives at the meeting to which I have referred already, and I consider I have such a moral obligation.

Would the Minister not agree that had this sorry matter been handled more expertly we might now have extra teachers in the schools?

With the Chair's indulgence I would like to say that the matter was handled with full expertise and consultation with the democratically elected executive of teachers' organisation, the only people with whom I could consult in mid-summer.

Would the Minister consider, particularly in city centre schools-where there has been a drop in population and where teachers have been withdrawn-looking at the matter and giving it sympathetic consideration?

I am afraid that is a very different question.

I know what the Deputy is referring to. It is quite true to say that in central city schools, and often in areas that are disadvantaged in certain ways, the pupil/teacher ratio was good. In fact I think that is what the Deputy is referring to. I would like to maintain the good ratio there, and even give extra help wherever possible. Therefore, I can assure the Deputy on that.

Might I ask the Minister what is his projection for the achievement of the 32 ration?

If the Deputy means a time projection——

Yes.

I could not say because there are so many variables and, as the Deputy is aware, one meets with difficulties.

Five years, ten years?

I cannot allow the Deputy to tie me to time but it will be as soon as I can achieve it.

If the Minister is there long enough.

Thank you.

Could the Minister indicate if the graduate teachers he has recruited will be employed in the primary schools sector?

That is my intention.

Next question.

I shall be very interested to see the outcome of that. In this regard I wish the Minister well.

Thank you; I knew the Deputy would say that.

I have called the next question.

24.