asked the Minister for Education when he proposes to introduce legislation for the new universities.

I am not in a position to say when legislation for the new universities will be introduced. Its preparation is in hand and the work will be expedited as much as possible.

Would the Minister not accept that most of the preparatory work for this legislation was done by the time the Minister came into office? Would he further explain the delay in introducing the necessary legislation?

I would not be prepared to accept that most of the preparatory work had been done. For example, there was a question of a referendum. I am not aware that the previous Government conducted a referendum, which we think may be necessary in this regard. Certain policy changes by the Government will also affect third level education, for example, the role that the National Council for Education Awards have to play, so that the Deputy is not right in saying that most of the preliminary work has been done.

Can the Minister actually tell us whether the Government propose to hold a referendum in connection with such legislation?

If it is necessary to hold a referendum as a pre-requisite of legislation, then it will have to be held but there has been no Government decision taken with regard to the referendum as yet.

Or legislation?

Does the Minister intend pursuing the concept of independent universities here?

That is a separate question.

If the Ceann Comhairle allows me. I will answer that question. The answer is yes.

The Minister said that preparation of the legislation is in hand. Could he be a little more precise about that? Does that mean it is with the parliamentary draftsman?

Certain aspects of legislation in regard to third level education are ready to go to the draftsman; draft heads are ready.

Is it not true that those draft heads were prepared before the Minister came into office?

It is not true.

I beg to differ with the Minister there. If the Minister has made changes in what was there before he came into office has he discussed those changes with the HEA and, if not, does he propose to seek their advice on them?

The document to which I referred as draft heads has been prepared since I came into office. There was already advice from the HEA on it which was taken into account.

Therefore, the HEA advice would be on the basis of the document I submitted to them when I was Minister.

Deputy P. Barry, when he was Minister, inherited certain policies from his predecessor. The Fianna Fáil Government decided to change certain aspects of those policies. Naturally enough the draft heads will change accordingly.

Will the Minister state if he consulted the HEA about the changes?

Yes. The HEA are charged statutorily with giving me advice. Of course advice is sought from them. They must be a little puzzled about the whole business. The previous Government changed their mind so often about third-level education they must be up in a heap.

The HEA got the document last November and they had it six months before they returned it. There should be no cause for any puzzlement about such a precise document.

The Minister is being ungenerous in his replies.

Does the Deputy think so?

I am calling Question No. 33.

33.

asked the Minister for Education when he proposes to introduce legislation to establish the NCEA on a statutory basis.

34.

asked the Minister for Education if and when he intends to establish on a statutory basis the National Council for Educational Awards; if the council will have power to award degrees, primary and post-graduate, to graduates of non-university institutions; when the necessary legislation will be enacted; and if he will make a comprehensive statement on the matter.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 33 and 34 together.

The necessary procedures for the preparation of legislation to establish the NCEA on a statutory basis have been initiated and will be expedited as much as possible. The powers of the council in relation to academic awards will be set out in the legislation.

Will the Minister state whether he proposes to give the NCEA any degree-awarding facilities in the area of teacher education?

The NCEA will have degree-awarding powers in relation to certain institutions which qualify teachers.

Will the Minister tell the House if the NCEA will be given the power of accrediation for post-graduate degrees?

Yes.

These matters necessitate legislation that will come before the House. There will be ample opportunity for discussing them then.

Is the Minister saying that some teachers will receive NCEA degrees and some will receive university degrees?

Yes.

Will the Minister state if the legislation relating to the NCEA will be introduced seperately and prior to the legislation relating to the universities?

The answer in both cases is yes.

Can the Minister give an assurance to the House that the independence of the management of higher institutes of education and the regional colleges will be assured and will not be tampered with by the NCEA legislation?

The chairman of the RTC in Waterford can rest content on that point.