asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport if the Government regard the provision of public transport as a social service or as a commercial operation; and, if a social service, the Government's attitude towards the balance between fare revenue and Exchequer subsidy.

Section 7 of the Transport Act 1958 imposes on CIE, which is the main provider of public transport in the country, the general duty to provide reasonable, efficient and economical transport services with due regard to safety of operation, the encouragement of national economic development and the maintenance of reasonable conditions of employment for their employees.

Section 2 of the Transport Act 1964, as amended by section 3 of the Transport (No. 2) Act 1974, imposes on CIE the duty to conduct their under-taking so that, after taking into account payments made to the board out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, their expenditure shall not be greater, taking one year with another, than their revenue.

These Acts do not make any reference to the provision of services which might be termed "social". However, the subvention provided by the Government is designed to cover the deficit arising in respect of those services which cannot be provided on an economic basis but which are regarded as necessary in the public interest.

In 1975 and 1976 the Exchequer subvention was equivalent to approximately 40 per cent of total revenue. The size of the subvention is not however fixed on the basis of any predetermined ratio. It is settled by the Government in the light of CIE forecasts for the year ahead, the prevailing and expected Exchequer position and other relevant considerations, including the interests of users of the services. CIE are expected to pursue all possible means of containing and reducing the deficit in the years ahead.

Can the Minister say if, when the Department and the Government are discussing, as they must, each year with CIE the extent of the deficit, there is a differentiation in the level of subsidy which would go for different kinds of services provided by CIE— for example, urban bus services, rural bus services or suburban rail services— or is it a straightforward totting up of the moneys required and the gross deficit? In simple words, is there any differentiation made during these discussions between the level of subsidy applied to different forms of service provided by CIE and if so can the Minister indicate what they might be?

I am sure that CIE prepare their estimate on the basis of changes under the different headings.

Am I to take it that CIE are the body that decide what the level of social subsidy should be in any one service and then propose the financing to the Government, or do the Department have any input to make in regard to the balance between revenue and subsidy?

CIE prepare an estimate and the Department decide on the level of subsidy.

I am trying to establish Government policy in this area. Do I take it from the Minister's reply that, under the terms of the Transport Act 1974 CIE attempt to make every service pay its way and that, as a result of some residual deficit that would arise, they then come to the Government; that at all stages the Department talk in gross terms and that the Department have no specific input——

That is a statement, Deputy.

With respect, it is a technical area.

The question only remotely relates to the original one. If we permit that sort of wandering we will make very little progress.

Does the Minister agree that what are, in fact, subventions for social services appear as losses and that such losses have a demoralising effect on the staff of CIE, and has he plans to change the presentation of these subventions?

Everybody understands it.