asked the Minister for Education the salary paid to Higher Diploma of Education students who are teaching while pursuing their studies; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

There is no provision for the payment of salary from State funds in respect of the supervised teaching practice undertaken by Higher Diploma in Education students as part of their course of studies for that diploma.

Does the Minister not feel that such students who are in fact participating in teaching functions are entitled to some recompense for the work they are doing in schools?

Firstly, I should declare my interests in this regard. I had to do it myself for nothing. The more H.Dip students who get some teaching for which they are paid the better. There are arrangements between schools to pay them. The requirements are from about three to five hours per week and some students get some money for that. I did not but I changed to another school where I got 2/6 per hour for a while.

Deputy E. Collins rose.

The Deputy should hold his horses because I have a lot more information to give him.

The Minister of State should take note.

I will have no reflections made on my Minister of State who is an excellent educationalist with plenty of experience in the field, which is more than I can say for the Deputy.

Secondary schools, as such, are private institutions and any arrangements made with H.Dip students is a matter between the schools and those students. I had a theory that it is not good for a student who is doing the H.Dip to have too much work to do because it is very difficult for him to follow his professional studies, particularly the philosophy and theory of education. If it is all practice and no theory it is not good and if it is all theory and no practice it is not good. The third category covered here is that of vocational teachers who are following the H.Dip course. Some of these as temporary, whole-time or part-time teachers get paid in accordance with the rates laid down by vocational education committees.

Would the Minister agree that it would be a constructive way of helping the pupil-teacher ratio if there was some formalisation of his Department's support for financing these trainee-teachers? Would it not be a good way of helping reduce the number in overcrowded classrooms?

It is not as simple as that. For example, in one case there is the registration council and that council, as the Deputy is aware, is not subject to my Department. It is made up of representatives of various teaching trade unions, managerial bodies and I have a representative on it. I would like to see diploma students being paid as much as possible in the various categories. Very often the more serious problem is to get schools for them to teach in.

Does the Minister believe and accept that the present situation in many cases amounts to exploitation of these students?

"Exploitation" is a strong word and I would not be prepared, without evidence from the Deputy, to use such a word.

What about the Minister's own experience?

The Deputy knows that I look like a person who is going to be exploited always.

We will do our best on that.