asked the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry if he will give details of the agreement reached on 25 September 1978, between the Common Market members and Spain, on the number of licensed Spanish boats which can fish within our exclusive limits.

4.

asked the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry if he will give details of the deal arranged through the EEC with Spain to allow Spanish vessels to fish in Irish waters; and if he will explain how this fits into the development plans for the Irish fishing industry.

I propose with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 1 and 4 together.

Details of the arrangement applicable to Spanish fishing vessels fishing in waters of member states of the Community for the period 1 October 1978 to 31 December 1978 are contained in Council Regulation (EEC) No. 2327/78 of 4 October 1978 which is available in the Library. These arrangements were adopted by the Council of Ministers in Brussels on 25 September.

The arrangements are of special importance to Ireland in that during the period to the end of this year Spanish vessels are precluded from fishing within a minimum of 50 miles outside Irish baselines. Since prior to the present arrangements Spanish boats were entitled to fish to 12 miles and in parts to six miles outside baselines, this reduction in pressure on fish stocks should further the development of the Irish fishing industry by providing increased catching possibilities for Irish fishermen.

How can the Minister say that this will help the Irish fishing industry when he has increased from 41 to 141 the number of licences for Spanish boats that can fish at any one time within our 200-mile limit, that is, in areas six and seven off our coasts? How can this be in the interest of conservation?

The Deputy may not be aware that we are talking about Spanish fishing vessels which apply to the whole Community area and not merely the Irish area.

I am well aware of that.

The figure of 240 licences operating over the whole area relates to the French and British coasts as well as to the Irish coast. This is an increase on 202 licences, the number that were available during the corresponding period last year. As far as we are concerned the important gain we alone have obtained is that the Spanish have agreed to give up what is not only their historic rights but their written six-to 12-mile rights. These rights were written into the London Convention as recently as 1964. Not only have the Spaniards agreed to give up these rights but they have agreed also to fish only 50 to 100 miles off base lines, rather on the same basis of exclusion so far as they are concerned as the Coalition Government prepared in relation to the box which they unilaterally declared but which was ruled out subsequently by the European Court. In effect the Spaniards have agreed to stay outside that box until the end of the year and, hopefully, on a continuous basis.

I know that, but the fish do not know it. I think the Minister is fooling us.

I have put the matter very plainly.

The relevant fact is that in respect of areas six and seven the number of licences is being increased from 41 to 141.

That is not so. The licences do not relate to a specific box but to the whole Community pond.

Is the Minister prepared to admit that the quota of hake has been increased substantially so far as the Spaniards are concerned?

I must emphasise that I have not given any quota or any licence to the Spaniards. What we are talking of here is a Community arrangement until the end of the year. It is a recurring arrangement paralleling a similar arrangement last year.

What, then, is the explanation for the 4,500 tons of hake quota?

It arises within the constraints I have mentioned.

It represents a vast increase on what was the situation previously.

The Deputy appears not to appreciate that, first, these licences apply to the whole Community, that, secondly, there is a waiving by the Spaniards in terms of their historic fishing rights and, thirdly, that they have agreed to fish outside the latitudinal and longitudinal box which is equivalent to 50 to 100 miles outside our base line. That box arrangement which was prepared by the Coalition is being utilised by us to exclude the Spaniards from fishing inside that area.

Leaving aside the smokescreen, is it the case that the quota has been greatly increased and that the Minister has agreed to this increase?

The Deputy must appreciate that I am talking about licences, not quotas.

I am talking about the 4,500 tons quota.

That relates to hake and to an area outside a distance of 50 to 100 miles.

Has not the Minister agreed to increase the quota?

I have agreed on the basis that we have secured a very substantial advance on our position, first, by succeeding in getting the Spaniards to withdraw from their six- to 12-mile fishing rights and, secondly, as an ad hoc measure for the remainder of this year while being hopeful that the arrangement will become permanent when Spain becomes a member of the EEC. They are now fishing for hake outside an area of 50 to 100 miles.

Yes, but for much more hake than was the case previously.

What we have achieved is very substantial.

Is it true that, in fishing for hake, the Spaniards may take a 200 per cent by-catch?

They are fishing in areas of water in which there is no Irishman fishing and that is the reality.

Is there a 200 per cent by-catch?

Of course there is but in that context we are talking of horse mackerel and other species that are not of any interest to us.

Question No. 2.

The Minister is trying to evade the issue.

The Chair and not the Deputy is in charge. Perhaps Deputy Deasy would behave himself. Indeed, Deputy FitzGerald might behave himself also.

Order.

Surely fish such as salmon reaching our coasts would have to swim through this by-catch.