(Cavan-Monaghan) asked the Minister for the Environment if he will consider holding local and European elections and the referendum on the same day and where necessary, appoint additional presiding officers and poll clerks for this purpose.

12.

(Cavan-Monaghan) asked the Minister for the Environment if he will make a statement on the arrangements for the poll and counts in the European and local elections to be held next June.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 23 and 24 together.

In accordance with the provisions of the Act annexed to the Decision of the Council of the European Communities dated 20 September 1976 and a further Council Decision on 25 July 1978, the elections to the Assembly of the European Communities are to be held in all the member states within the period from 7 to 10 June 1979. In our case it has been decided that the elections will take place on Thursday, 7 June and the Minister will in due course make a formal order fixing this date as the polling day. The period for receiving nominations will be from 5 to 12 May inclusive. Under the provisions of the Council Act of 20 September 1976, the counting of the votes cast at the Assembly election may not begin until after the close of the poll in all the member states. In accordance with this provision, counting may not commence until Sunday evening. As announced some time ago the Government have decided that the local government elections will also be held on 7 June. The detailed arrangements to facilitate the taking of the two polls together are being considered at present by my Department in consultation with returning officers for the Assembly and local elections.

It is expected that detailed arrangements will be finalised within the next few weeks and effect will be given to these arrangements, so far as may be necessary, by regulations under section 91 of the Electoral Act, 1963, which makes special provision for holding two or more polls together. It is intended that the necessary segregation of the ballot papers used at the two elections will take place on Friday 8 June and that the count of the local election votes will then take place in the normal way.

The question of holding the referendum on the Sixth Amendment of the Constitution (Adoption) Bill, 1978, on the same day as the other polls was considered. However, it was decided, after consulting returning officers, not to hold the referendum on the same day because of the possibility that taking the three polls together and four polls in urban areas could give rise to confusion. As announced recently, the intention is to hold this referendum on 5 July 1979. A further referendum on the question of university representation in the Seanad may also be held on that date, if the relevant Constitution Amendment Bill, which the Minister for Education will be introducing, can be processed in time.

(Cavan-Monaghan): In relation to Question No. 11, does the Minister not think it a little unreasonable to subject the country to a national election on 7 June and a national referendum on 5 July?

This is argument.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It is not. Experience has shown that in 1937 a referendum and an election were held on the same day and in 1945 a presidential election and the local elections were held on the same day. Does the Minister not think that in the intervening years people have become more enlightened and educated and it would be quite possible to hold the two elections on the same day? I suggest that in larger polling booths or, indeed, where necessary, any difficulty could be avoided by the appointment of further staff, presiding officers and poll clerks.

In relation to Question No. 12, do I understand from the Minister that it is only proposed to use one ballot box, because that is what he seems to suggest? Is it suggested that all ballot papers be put into the one box and that they are then brought to a centre in each county, opened there and sorted out? Is the Minister satisfied that amending legislation will not be necessary to do that in so far as the European elections are concerned? The Minister will remember that when this matter was being discussed in the House it was——

The Deputy has asked several questions and he should allow the Minister to reply to them.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I just want to finish this. When the legislation was going through the House there was a suggestion that the presidential system should be used with a separate count in each consituency up to the point of the first count and that the papers then be removed to a central counting place for the completion of the count. The Minister's Minister of State stated on that occasion that that was not either possible or permissable. What has changed in the meantime?

The position is that the Government decided not to hold the referenda on the same day as the local elections and the EEC Assembly elections because by having four polls in some areas and five polls in urban areas it would give rise to a confusion and an unsatisfactory high level of spoiled votes. In urban areas there would be urban council elections, county council elections, the EEC elections and a vote on each of the referendum proposals, which would make five. I believe that this would give rise to a very high level of spoiled votes.

Is that not a reflection on the intelligence of our people, given that in the USA 20 or more issues are voted on simultaneously? In regard to the use of the one box, is the Minister satisfied that this is legal under our existing law and that the arrangements made are in conformity with the agreement reached at the European Council? Is it a fact that the reason for using one box is that we have not made any new boxes since the British did it in 1898? Is it the intention of the Government that, as those boxes run out, elections will cease completely because they will never manufacture any more?

It is not true. As a matter of fact, I believe that the intelligence of the Irish electorate can best be shown up by holding these on two separate days. The question of the lack of ballot boxes does not arise.

(Cavan-Monaghan): The Minister has not answered my question. Is the Minister satisfied beyond doubt that amending legislation will not be necessary to do what the Minister wants to do now? In other words, is he satisfied that the European Electoral Act, 1978, will not have to be amended?

I am satisfied.

In that case there will be separate ballot boxes for the European and local elections, is that right?

No, that is not so.

If there are not separate ballot boxes how does the Minister say that lack of them does not arise? Does he mean that there will be boxes there but he will not use them?

No. This is to facilitate the electorate and to speed up the voting procedure coming on to the close of the poll.

(Cavan-Monaghan): If you have only one box, you cannot put your paper into the wrong one.

If the Minister will investigate the matter I think he will find that there are not enough boxes and that his Department and the Department of Finance have refused to provide the money to make them available. Is that not the problem and would the Minister not come clean?

That is not true. I have investigated this position thoroughly and I am satisfied with the whole procedure.

The Minister has enough money for a box of matches.

That allegation is completely unfounded.

The Minister has enough money for a box of matches.

When is it intended that the count will commence for the European elections?

It is intended that the actual count will commence on Sunday evening.

At what time?

The time has not yet been fixed. All these details will be included in regulations which will be finalised and published under section 191 of the Electoral Act, 1963, within the next two weeks.

Has it not been agreed with the other member states that the results will be announced at the one time? In view of the fact that we are the only country with proportional representation will this not pose problems in having the results because of the delay that will be involved?

No, it will not.

Even though our count will take much longer?

I went into this procedure and I am satisfied.

Would Deputy Fitzpatrick make his supplementary brief, please?

(Cavan-Monaghan): Is the Minister aware that a circular has gone out from his Department saying that all the ballot boxes are to be opened on the Thursday evening, Thursday night, or thereabouts and that all ballot papers are to be checked face upwards? Has such a circular gone out?

This will be the procedure.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Is not that virtually conducting the count? Will tally people not be able to conduct a count and find out on Friday night who is elected to Europe? Is that not directly contrary to the rules of the European Community?

The ballot papers relating to the European elections will be put together, taken to the central counting offices in the various constituencies and will be counted there.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Apart from the fact that I was told when the Bill was being debated that that could not be done and it is now being done, is it not a fact—I want to be clear about this—that the circular has gone out and that the ballot papers for the local authority and European elections are to be extracted from the box and are to be checked face upwards?

Would the Deputies please resume their seats? The Minister is speaking.

I would ask the Deputy to await the publication of the regulations which will be made shortly under section 91 of the Electoral Act, 1963. These regulations may well cover a lot of the problems about which he is concerned.

Is the Minister aware that the postal voting system was grossly abused at the last election when a great deal of racketeering took place? What steps if any, has he taken to ensure——

This is not a relevant question.

——that such abuses will not arise again on 7 June next?

I would ask Deputy Murphy to await publication of the regulations which will be published shortly.

We had candidates at the last election going around with pocketfuls of votes. The system was grossly abused then and I am completely against that system.

When will the regulations be published?

I would say within two weeks.

In view of the Minister's non-denial of what has been said about a circular suggesting that votes for the European elections be checked face upwards, is he aware of the nature of the agreement reached at the European Council, at which I personally participated, that a condition of the elections being held over a period of days in different countries was that the boxes containing the European votes would not be opened so that there would be no danger that any assessment of the results would come out in one country in advance of others which could pre-judge the result of the election in other countries? Is the Minister aware, that it was on a proposal by this country that that procedure be adopted that other countries accepted in good faith the idea of the elections being held over a period of days and agreed that we, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom would hold our elections on Thursday, three days earlier? If it is proposed to allow these votes to be checked face upwards, this would be a serious breach of faith vis-à-vis our partners in the European Community because the tally men would produce results which could affect elections elsewhere. We guaranteed that that would not happen and it was on that condition we were allowed to have the election on Thursday. Would the Minister please investigate the matter further in the light of that?

In reply to the Deputy——

(Cavan-Monaghan): May I ask the Minister——

We cannot have any more supplementaries.

(Cavan-Monaghan): It is not controversial.

The Chair is not concerned with whether or not it is controversial. The Chair is satisfied that the matter has been probed more than sufficiently. I have allowed an unusually long time; I will not allow any more.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Am I right in thinking that the form of postal voting we will have is that which has been in operation in Dáil elections for years and not the system which was in force for the local elections last time?

I cannot say at this moment but an official announcement will be made shortly in relation to this.

Neither of the two questions asks anything about the system of voting. We cannot have a discussion on the matter.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Would the Minister not agree that it would be impossible to have one system for one election and the other system for the other election?

The Deputy could be right.

I am very anxious to ascertain if the Minister is aware of the facts as I stated them, because if he was not aware of them this could involve revision of the circular in question. I am entitled to a reply as to whether the Minister is aware of the facts at the European Council meeting, because civil servants are not present at these meetings and some difficulties arise sometimes as to what actually happened there. I have a full record which I would be willing to furnish to the Minister.

As far as I am aware, under the provisions of the Council Act of 20 September 1976, the counting of the votes cast at Assembly Election may not begin until after the close of the poll in all the member states, and the emphasis there is on the actual counting of the votes.

No, that is not what is in the Act. That Act was, as the result of an agreement between Heads of Governments, based on an offer on our part, and other countries, that the boxes would not be opened. I am concerned lest there be a breach of faith on the part of this country, quite unintentionally by the present Government. I would ask the Minister of State to look into the record of that meeting which is in the Department of Foreign Affairs.