asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs to indicate if he has received representations from Irish voluntary organisations in relation to the role of the ESB in the Philippines and, if so, if he will make a statement on the matter.

12.

asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if a formal request has been received from the ESB for guidance in relation to their involvement in the Philippines and to indicate the guidance his Government have given directly to the ESB in this regard.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take questions Nos. 11 and 12 together.

The Government have not received a formal request for guidance, nor did we give guidance concerning a proposal by the ESB to undertake consultancy work in relation to the management and internal structure of the Philippines National Power Corporation, under the aegis of the World Bank, since this matter arose before this Government took office.

I have received representations from voluntary agencies in regard to consultancy work being undertaken by the ESB in the Philippines at the invitation of the World Bank. In this connection, I refer the Deputy to the reply given by the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Energy on 13 June 1978 to a question on this subject.

I appreciate that the agency in question does not directly fall under the Minister's departmental responsibility, but has any kind of guidance been offered to the ESB in relation to this vexed matter by the Department of Foreign Affairs under his ministerial stewardship, as distinct from a response to any formal request?

As I have said, the decision was taken during a time when I had no responsibility. Secondly, where occasions arise in respect of United Nations sanctions or otherwise we convey the Government's policy position through the appropriate Department. I am glad to note that the semi-State organisations concerned have always taken this into account. That has not arisen in this case.

Is there any broad Government policy in regard to economic dealings with countries where there is a clear denial of human rights?

That might arise more on the next question. As far as the human rights element is concerned, most Deputies will be aware that in the course of the renegotiations of the Lomé Convention there has been a tendency on the part of the EEC countries to impose conditions for aid related to human rights. That tendency has been very firmly resisted by the APC countries themselves. We have to apply the same criteria in relation to Africa as we would to the Philippines or elsewhere. We have to be consistent.

Would the Minister confirm that the charter of the World Bank prevents the World Bank from taking political matters into consideration when they are granting financial aid to the poorest of the poor whose economic and social circumstances are so deplorable that they have not even the ability to assess what their political situation is?

I accept that that is the role and function of the World Bank and that they are guided by their charter. I accept also that the activities of our semi-State organisations under the aegis of the World Bank are aimed at alleviating the problems to which the Deputy referred.

Surely the Minister——

We are getting into argument.

I have one point.

I will permit the Deputy to ask one question quickly without preamble.

Will the Minister accept that where it is clear that the aid in question is not reaching the poor in these countries but may be supporting corrupt and dictatorial regimes, this policy approach should be reconsidered?

That does not happen.

The Deputy has suggested that this is happening in the case of the Philippines.

It seems.

That is another matter.

13.