asked the Minister for Social Welfare if United Kingdom pensioners being paid by him under reciprocal arrangements with the United Kingdom Government are receiving full sterling value pensions or the equivalent figure in Irish pounds.

The question of the rates of payment of social welfare pensions of other member states, in the light of currency fluctuations, has been the subject of constant discussions between the countries of the EEC since its inception but no satisfactory solution has yet been found.

On the entry of this country into the European Monetary System in March last it was agreed with the British postal authorities that, as a temporary measure, British pensioners in this country and Irish pensioners in Britain would continue to be paid their pensions at post offices at the rates shown on their pension books.

At that time there was only a slight difference in the exchange rates and this arrangement was regarded as the most equitable method of payment for pensioners in both countries. It also has the advantage of saving the pensioners any currency exchange charges for which they would ordinarily be liable if pensions were paid otherwise than at the post offices.

This matter is, however, under active discussion between officials of my Department and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and officials of the corresponding British Ministries with a view to finding a solution which will be equitable and convenient to the pensioners.

Would the Minister not agree that, in view of the fact that the British £ is now worth considerably more than the Irish £, Irish residents—who are in receipt of British pensions paid to them by courtesy of his Department—are being exploited; that a profit is being made by somebody at their expense, someone who is receiving the difference between the pension they are getting in Irish pounds, which are worth less, and the pension they should be getting in British pounds if they were resident in Britain?

I accept that.

What is the Minister prepared to do about it? Who is receiving this profit and what is the Minister prepared to do about it?

I have told the Deputy that the matter is under discussion between my Department, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the appropriate British Ministries to see what can be done.

Would the Minister give an assurance that a retrospective refund will be made to these pensioners to ensure that they will receive the same amount——

No, I will not.

——as they would have received had they been resident in Britain, and that no public authority, Irish or British, will make a profit at their expense?

No, I could not give any such assurance.

In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I propose, with your permission, Sir, to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

In assessing the means of a non-contributory pensioner in the Republic, does the Minister take into consideration the value of the British pension at the sterling rate or at the rate of the Irish currency?

I am afraid I do not understand the question. The question here deals with a very real, current problem, that is, the fact that Irish pensioners receiving pensions in Britain and British pensioners receiving their pensions here now have to contend with a new situation in regard to currency changes. As I have said, that situation is under active review at present between all the appropriate Ministries concerned.

That is not worth very much to the pensioners concerned.

I do not know how the Minister can find this very difficult to understand. If an Irish person is in receipt of a British pension——

It was the Deputy's question I did not understand.

Perhaps I may be permitted to repeat it: if an Irish national is working in Britain and is in receipt of a reduced contributory British pension, does the Minister consider the value of sterling when assessing the means in order to award that person a non-contributory pension in the Republic?

I just do not understand the question. The Deputy is talking about a person in receipt of a contributory pension getting a non-contributory pension.

No, I am talking about a British pension and about a supplementary non-contributory pension. Does it embarrass the Minister to admit that we have lost out on the break with sterling and that it is the ordinary people who are paying? Does it not embarrass the Minister? Have they all not made a big blunder? Those pensioners are not getting the pensions they are entitled to.

All the Minister can say is that the matter is under active consideration.

Order. This has nothing to do with the question on the Order Paper.

Why is the Chair protecting the Minister?

The Chair is concerned with the questions on the Order Paper. The question the Deputy is now asking has nothing to do with the question on the Order Paper.

I am asking the Minister, in relation to the value of the Irish pound, if he is aware that Irish pensioners in receipt of British pensions——

The Deputy is asking about a means test.

I am not. Why are you protecting the Minister?

The Minister is not doing his job in relation to this matter.

Question Time is not for statements of this kind. I am calling Question No. 41.

I will repeat what I said. There is a problem in relation to British pensioners receiving their pensions here and it is under active consideration with the paying Departments in Britain.