asked the Minister for the Environment the reasons he has requested each town clerk to maintain a three month log of all official journeys which must be certified by the appropriate manager and forwarded to his Department for examination and approval.

Following negotiations between the Local Government Staff Negotiations Board and the Local Government and Public Services Union on a claim on behalf of town clerks generally, agreement was reached on a number of issues. Part of the agreement provided that town clerks would, where appropriate, be granted an annual travelling allowance, in lieu of travelling expenses for each individual journey, to cover their expenses for travel on official business. It was agreed also that the method referred to by the Deputy would be employed in determining the allowance in each case. This is the procedure adopted in similar cases throughout practically the entire local authority service and it is considered to be the fairest way of relating a fixed allowance to the officer's mileage in the course of the year.

Arising out of the Minister's reply, with reference to circular LA (P2/79), would the Minister not agree that asking county and city managers, who are not exactly underemployed, to take the log book to which the Minister has referred, to verify it themselves, as the senior official in the local authority, and to then send it to the Custom House, where the Minister's officials are not exactly underemployed, to have it examined and approved is a bureaucratic procedure which makes nonsense of local government?

No. This is the procedure agreed at the negotiations with the unions representing these people. This is by agreement with those parties. The procedure is that the officer concerned keeps a log of his official journeys over a period, usually of three months; the log is then certified by the manager as being typical of the officer's travelling on official business. Then it is submitted to my Department, when the allowances are calculated and approved.

More cutbacks.

Would the Minister not agree that, implicit in paragraph 3 of section 3 of this circular, to which he has referred and which his answer is based upon, is a distrust of managers and their ability to approve travelling expenses in respect of town clerks? Does the Minister not agree that this makes nonsense of local government?

I do not agree with the Deputy. I have explained that that is the normal procedure in all these cases.

That is not normal. It is outrageous.

With the permission of the Chair, I would finally ask is the Minister not aware that this circular, coupled with the provisions of some of the Acts which this Minister has passed since he unfortunately took up office in the Department of the Environment, has seriously damaged the morale of county managers and city managers?

Not to my knowledge. I have no knowledge of that.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Would the Minister give us any idea of the amount of money involved in the three months' period mentioned?

For all the town clerks?

(Cavan-Monaghan): No. For an average town clerk.

No. I will let the Deputy have this information.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Will the Minister not agree that the amount involved is a paltry sum. This is centralisation gone mad, asking town clerks' travelling expenses, which could not amount to more than £50, to be verified by the manager and then trotted up to the Custom House to be scrutinised and certified by the Minister. Surely that is centralisation gone mad?

Both sides have agreed, including the unions.

More cutbacks. That is what it means.

Could I ask this final question: what level of official in the Custom House will be approving the certificates approved and sent out by the manager?

That is a separate question.

That does not arise.

It arises. Does the Minister know?

The Minister needs notice of that.