Is the Minister seriously suggesting that we accept that there is no difference between the September statement of Minister O'Kennedy and the Berlin Communiqué, bearing in mind the September statement to the UN, paragraph 3 of which refers to the right to a homeland, and the Bahrein communiqué, which at paragraph 5 refers to the establishment of an independent state in Palestine?

I am very glad Deputy O'Keeffe raised this point because the whole position has already been stated by other member countries of the EEC. My statement in regard to self-determination is an amplification of what my predecessor said as President of the EEC. The Foreign Minister of Belgium, Mr. Simonet, has stated that it is up to the Palestinians themselves to decide upon the actual manner in which they wish to express their national identity. With the parties concerned they will decide whether they prefer a status of autonomy or an independent state, a federal framework or a confederate one; it is open to negotiation.

Mr. Forlani, the Italian Foreign Minister, has called for concrete recognition of the legitimate right of the people, who cannot be denied a fatherland, to express their own national identity through the constitution of a state entity. He has also stated the wish to afford recognition of the national rights of the Palestinian people, aiming at the establishment of their own state, national rights which must be translated into facts. The Foreign Minister of France, M. de Guiringand, has stated that the right of the Palestinian people to express their national identity cannot be exercised without a territorial base which, at the proper time, could be given the structures of statehood. Mr. Genscher, Foreign Minister of the Federal Republic of Germany, has said that a peace settlement should make allowance for the right of self-determination of the Palestinian people, including the right to establish a state authority.

Nobody is in disagreement with that. Everyone agrees that the Palestinians have a right to their own land.

State.

We must not get into a debate on the PLO.

We are trying to get into a debate on the Minister's incompetence.

Taking into account that I have not received a satisfactory answer from the Minister in regard to the distinction between a homeland and an independent state, there are a couple of other issues I want to raise.

A state is a formalised or institutionalised homeland.