asked the Minister for Defence if any studies have been carried out by his Department on the production of armoured vehicles based on the Timoney APC; if his attention has been drawn to the outline designs which have been prepared for an armoured reconnaissance vehicle; if the the rights to such designs are available; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

No studies of the specific nature mentioned have been carried out by my Department. However, research and study of developments in the design and performance of new types of armoured vehicles is a continuous process in the military branches of my Department. In this connection, the availability and suitability of any new designs of armoured vehicles will be considered, including the question of the rights to such designs.

In relation to the rights of the designs of the Timoney car, are they owned exclusively by the Irish Army or the Irish people? Have we any licences or any issue to any individuals or peoples?

We have rights to tender to have the Timoney cars made in Ireland.

Do I take it that we have sole rights of the production of the Timoney car?

We have a right to go to tender to have the Timoney APC in this country.

The Minister has pulled a fast one.

If, for example, a third party were interested in purchasing the Timoney armoured car or any vehicle of that sort, who would have the right to sell the patent rights to the third person concerned?

It would depend. I understand that the Deputy refers in another question to the fact that certain vehicles are being made under licence in Belgium. The designer holds that this is a different vehicle from the APCs which the Army have got.

That one is working.

In those circumstances he is the one who has the right to give it.

If somebody else has acquired the right to produce the Timoney car, are we being paid or what is the position in relation to it? I can present to the Minister a Swiss magazine which advertises the Timoney car with Irish officers or Irish Army personnel on it and described as the BDX designed Timoney armoured car. This is a Swiss magazine which is in the possession of many European army personnel. Have we sold the right of the Timoney armoured car? If we have, have we got an income from it?

The vehicle the Deputy is referring to is the one made in Belgium and we have not any rights to that because it is not the same vehicle as the one being manufactured here.

Is it based on the same design?

Would the Minister accept that it is described as the Timoney car?

If a designer gave that right to the company who are producing it in Belgium they have the right to use that name.

Question No. 11.

We cannot have an inordinate number of questions.

This is a serious question.

It does not matter how serious it is. We cannot be interminably asking supplementary questions. The Chair may decide that 14 supplementaries are about as much as were ever permitted to any person.

Have we given, sold or leased in any way the patent or the rights of producing the Timoney armoured car to any person outside the State?

We had not the right to give the one that the Deputy is referring to to anybody. The designer claimed that it was not the same vehicle as the one manufactured for our Army and the designer gave permission to a company in Belgium to construct vehicles under licence. He may have given them the right to use the word "Timoney". That is his business.

How much State money went into the development of the prototype?

This was a different vehicle.

(Cavan-Monaghan): Arising out of the Minister's last answer, could I ask him what is the difference between the two vehicles, the Irish and the Belgian?

The Belgian one is used more for police operations than military operations.

(Cavan-Monaghan): What is the difference in the design?

I cannot go into details.

(Cavan-Monaghan): I notice that the Minister is very careful to say that Timoney alleges that they are different vehicles. Are they different?

Order, please.

Yes, I understand they are.

(Cavan-Monaghan): That is what I want to know. Is the Minister not too clear about this?

I am aware that they are different.

I am calling Question No. 11. I am not trying to curtail this, but these are all separate questions which can be put down.

I think that we have penetrated the Ceann Comhairle's armour.

11.