andMr. O'Toole asked the Minister for Industry, Commerce and Tourism if his attention has been drawn to the number of independent retail grocers in Ireland who have gone out of business in the past five years, if so, if he will outline his policy in this area and the steps he is taking to remedy the situation.

Though up-to-date official statistics in the matter are not available, I am aware generally that over a period of years past the number of independent retail grocers has been declining.

For many years past, policy in relation to the retail grocery trade—and retail distribution generally—has been concerned with the elimination of restrictive practices and the stimulation of increased efficiency. Inherent in this policy is the premise that the public expect—and are entitled—to have a choice between the services offered by the independent retail grocer and those offered by branches of multiple retail outlets. Thus, the aim of legislation in this area, such as the Restrictive Practices Act, 1972, and Orders made thereunder, is to stimulate a healthy competitive environment in which the various forms of retail outlet can develop. However, I recognise that problems for the independent retailers continue to arise and in this connection. I recently had discussions with certain of the interests immediately concerned. Arising from these discussions I understand that the interests in question are to examine further and in more detail certain aspects of the proposals being put by them before me for consideration. Further discussions in the matter are envisaged and decisions on future action must await the outcome of these discussions.

Would the Minister not agree that he has already been furnished with accurate information on this by some bodies who have had discussions with him in this regard, and that from the statistics furnished to the Minister there were approximately 7,000 retailers between 1976 and 1979 who have gone out of business? Is the Minister not concerned at this—a situation in which 7,000 families have been forced out of business?

I am not at all certain that that figure is correct. Obviously, there has been a decline in this country, as in all others, in the number of small, independent retail outlets. Happily the decline has been much less here than it has been in most other countries.

What figure has the Minister got?

The latest figure I have for grocers alone, which was derived from the Nielsen Retail Census of 1976, is that there was a decline as between 1966 and 1976 from 12,681 to 9,042, or a decline of 28.7 per cent.

The figures the Minister has quoted were in respect of the years 1966 to 1976. The figures with which he has already been furnished by the IADT are in respect of the years 1976 to 1979, setting out approximately 7,000 independent retailers. Would the Minister conduct a thorough investigation at this stage through his Department to ascertain the correct figure and whether corrective action can be taken?

That is a matter for the Central Statistics Office. They conduct what is called a census of distribution. In fact I understand they conducted one in 1977, the results of which are not yet available from the Central Statistics Office.

Is the Minister shunning responsibility for this particularly serious situation?

No, Deputy, I am not.

If he is not then he had better have it thoroughly investigated.

Right.

Would the Minister not agree that the figures quoted for the years 1976 to 1979 of 7,000 small retailers going out of business should be a matter of very serious concern to the Minister and indeed to other Members of the House? Would he not agree further that the difficulty they are experiencing from the operation of supermarkets, whether Irish or foreign, is being severely aggravated by the credit squeeze and the very high bank interest rates where loans or overdrafts are available?

I agree, if the figure were correct; but I should like to see official figures on this. If it were correct, it would be serious.

It is serious.

Would the Minister not therefore have a study conducted?

Would the Minister not accept that if the figure was only 50 per cent correct it would still be a matter of very serious concern?

It is serious.