asked the Minister for Transport if there has been Government response to the EEC Commission's memorandum on the Development of Air Services in the Community, and the measures he intends to take in support of the Community's efforts to reduce the level of air fares in Europe.

The EEC Commission's memorandum referred to by the Deputy was published in July 1979 and the Governments of all member states, including Ireland, gave their initial reactions to the memorandum at the Council of Transport Ministers' meeting in Brussels on 6 December 1979. The Government welcomed the memorandum as a discussion document which contained a comprehensive presentation of important issues in the sphere of air transport and outlined possibilities for a community approach to the development of air transport services. The memorandum is now being examined by a special council working group on which Ireland is represented.

It is in the interest of the industry as well as the travelling public that air fares be as low as can be sustained, having regard to the need for the economic viability of the airlines. This is my policy on fares and I am prepared to support any new services directed towards this end.

Do the Government support that section of the memorandum which sets out to reduce air fares into Europe? If so, have they publicly declared their support?

I would like to tell the Deputy that discussions have only commenced on this document. They are ongoing. There are meetings every month and when final situations have been evolved I will certainly make a statement on them.

Do the Government support that part of the memorandum?

There are many other aspects in it. There are nine points involved in the area the Deputy is talking about and they are all being taken together.

That is the most essential part.

As I said, discussions are taking place and when final decisions have been reached the Deputy will hear from us.

22.

asked the Minister for Transport if a report that he has required an airline (details supplied) to charge the IATA cartel fare between Shannon and Amsterdam is correct, although the airline is not a member of the cartel, and if he considers the higher fare promotes the development of Shannon Airport.

Transamerica Airlines filed a current fare of £179 return for the Shannon/Amsterdam route. This is the fare that I have approved. The IATA corresponding current fare for the route is £209 return.

Is it true that the airline in question, Transamerica, were prepared to charge a lesser fare but were not allowed to do so?

The fare they have filed with me is £179 and that is the fare I have approved. The question asked by the Deputy was if I had instructed Transamerica to charge the IATA fare for the Shannon/Amsterdam route. The fare I approved was lower than the IATA fare and that is the fare they filed with me.

Was there a request from Transamerica to charge a lower fare than £179?

I do not know why they would ask for a lower fare than £179 because that is the fare they filed and that is the one I approved.

Is the Minister sure there was not a request for a lower fare? My information is that there was.

That is the fare they filed. I am surprised they did not seek a lower fare if they wanted one.

Fair enough. I will come back to the Minister again.

23.

asked the Minister for Transport if he has recently required United States airlines to increase air fares to Ireland.

Following the talks with the US authorities in March last both sides agreed that the incentive group fare and bargain fares including the stand-by fare should be adjusted upwards from 1 June by one of the US scheduled airlines operating to Shannon. Fares to Ireland by the other US airline are not affected.

It is an important objective of our air transport policy to secure regular and stable air services on a year-round basis. This is essential for tourist development, especially the extension of the season, and for the development of business and trade between Ireland and the US. To secure year-round service requires that fares be pitched at a level which will offer attractive travel opportunities for the public and at the same time cover the airline's costs. The upward adjustments agreed at the recent talks were necessary because of the uneconomic nature of the fares in question and their likely diversionary and destabilising effect on the market.

Can we take as being correct the statement of an executive of Transamerica Airlines that they were looking for a lower fare between this country and the US but the Minister's Department would not allow this lower fare?

I am not aware of the statement the Deputy refers to. I would remind him that those fares were agreed at the bilateral talks between the US and the Irish authorities.

The report to which I refer was published in The Irish Times on 10 April last. As there has not been any contradiction I presume that this statement is correct that their airline had to charge a higher fare.

I am not responsible for whatever reports are printed in The Irish Times and, as I said, I am not aware of this report. However, the Deputy may, if he wishes, draw it to my attention at a later stage.

Is the Minister denying it?

I have not seen the report and I am not responsible for what is in it.

The report said that they have to charge higher fares at the insistence of the Minister's Department.

The fares were agreed between the US and the Irish authorities at the bilateral talks. This is the way the matter is handled.

At the insistence of the Minister's Department.

My Department and the US authorities sat down at a table and worked the matter out. That was the agreement that was reached.

24.

asked the Minister for Transport why he has not permitted an airline (details supplied) to operate a Cork to Gatwick air service this summer although such a service has the wide support of Cork business and tourist interests, and was supported by Aer Rianta spokesment at the Oireachtas Committee on State-sponsored Bodies.

The airline in question has permission from my Department to operate scheduled air services on the London (Gatwick)—Cork route. This permission was issued to the company on 4 February 1980.

25.

asked the Minister for Transport if he is aware that the commercial manager of an airline (details supplied) stated last month that his airline would be prepared to charge cheaper fares on the Irish services but that these would be unlikely to be approved, and if he will ensure that such approval will be given.

The fares filed by Danair for their cross-channel services are in accordance with IATA rates and have been approved by me. While I am always willing to examine any filing on its merits I would not be prepared to approve any fare which would tend to undermine the economics of cross-channel services and militate against the operation of year-round services on the present extensive network of Ireland/UK routes.

Is it correct that Danair were prepared to charge a lower fare but the Minister's Department would not agree to this proposal?

I would like to tell the Deputy that in recent letters informing us of Danair's cross-channel designation the Department of Trade in the UK told us that Danair's tariff and cargo rates would be in accordance with IATA rates. Presumably this information was supplied to the UK Department of Trade by Danair.

26.

asked the Minister for Transport why he has sanctioned the £99 air fare from Dublin to London and if profits from this route are used to subsidise other Aer Lingus activities or services.

I have not yet formally approved the increase in the normal economy return fare on the Dublin/London route to £99. However I will allow this fare to be applied unless I disapprove it.

There are, of course, a range of fares available apart from the normal economy fare. For example, the excursion fare available to those who stay for six to 30 days is £82 and there is also an advance purchase—that is APEX—fare available at £64.

Normally all cross-channel and European services operated by Aer Lingus recover the direct cost of operation and make some contribution to control charges and overheads. This contribution varies from route to route.

I should add that the charge per mile on the Dublin/London route is lower than that on comparable international routes in Europe. This was confirmed recently in a report on travel costs and services between Britain and Ireland published by the Federation of Irish Societies in Britain.

On the basis of the information available I am not in a position to say to what extent the revenue from particular routes such as the Dublin/London route may be said to subsidise other Aer Lingus activities or services.

While the Minister's reply may be correct that the Dublin/London fare is comparable with other European fares of the same length, is he aware that it is three or four times greater than comparable fares in North America?

May I remind the Deputy that the increase on the London route is 16 per cent and the average increase on the UK provincial routes is 23 per cent, the continental routes 23 per cent and the North Atlantic routes 17 per cent? That speaks for itself.

Is the Minister aware that it is still three or four times higher than the comparable rates in the USA and Canada?

The information I have just given clearly amplifies that the London route is not anything like what it could be if normal cost variations were taken into consideration over a number of years and it is not anything like as high as people think it to be.

Is it not true that British Airways are operating a cheaper flight than Aer Lingus and, if so, why?

Aer Lingus offer cheaper flights than the £99. As I have already said, they have the six to 30 days for £82 and the advance fare, the APEX fare, available at £64.

It is still cheaper than that.

I must compare like with like.

When the Minister says that the cost per mile between Dublin and London compares favourably with any other international route, how does he explain that it is much cheaper to fly from Belfast to London than it is from Dublin to London? It is about £20 cheaper on the return flight. Why is that?

I am not aware why. I did not say precisely what the Deputy attributed to me.

I do not know what the Minister said precisely.

It makes a difference to the answer one would get. I did not say what the Deputy attributed to me.

I understood the Minister to say that the cost of travel per mile between Dublin and London compared favourably with the cost between any two international cities in Europe.

That is not what I said.

Why does it cost £20 more to fly from Dublin to London than from Belfast to London?

One must compare like with like when comparing fares, services and everything else. The supplementary that arose arose from some interpretation of what the Deputy said that I said, but that is not what I said. Because of that the Deputy has totally misconstrued the whole situation.

The Minister has me confused.

Why do people living in the ancient province of Ulster, the nine-county Ulster, who wish to travel to London, travel to London cheaper by £20 if they go through Belfast rather than Dublin?

The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.

Will the Deputy expand on what he is saying? Perhaps the Deputy is talking about a walk-on/walk-off service or a shuttle service. There are different situations for every fare.

Question Time is now over. Deputy Kelly on the Finance Bill.

The Minister has not answered.

One must compare like with like.

Order, please. Question Time is over.

I had a Private Notice Question down which was ruled out of order.

Will Deputy White please allow his colleague to make his speech?

I wish to raise on the Adjournment this evening the position in regard to the situation down at Parteen, County Clare, where the salmon are unable to get up along the Shannon to spawn. They are being prevented from doing so; and if salmon are unable to spawn this year it will have a serious effect on salmon fishing.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the question of the lay-off of almost 100 workers by Donegal County Council as a result of the cutback of Government finance to Donegal County Council.

I will communicate with Deputy Harte also in the matter.