asked the Minister for Justice if, in view of the menace and danger presented by the increasing number of stray and unwanted dogs, he will transfer the function of dog control from the Garda to local authorities.

44.

asked the Minister for Justice if he will outline his proposals for the control of stray and unwanted dogs.

45.

asked the Minister for Justice the number of dogs now in the country.

On a point of order, may I ask, as a matter of courtesy to the House, and without intending any disrespect to the Minister of State, if it would be possible to ascertain where the Minister for Justice is?

It does not arise as far as the Chair is concerned.

With the permission, of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Question Nos. 43, 44 and 45 together.

Under the Dogs Act, 1906, the Garda are empowered to seize stray dogs. In the Dublin Metropolitan Area, however, stray dogs are dealt with on behalf of the Garda by the Dublin Branch of Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. The Garda give as much attention to the enforcement of the law in this area as is possible having regard to the demands made on their numbers and resources. Where there is evidence to sustain charges, and where the owners of the offending dogs can be identified, prosecutions are taken. Prosecutions are also taken against the owners of unlicensed dogs where ownership can be established. In addition, the Garda exhort dog owners to exercise control over their dogs and point to the damage that dogs can do to sheep flocks.

The Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1976, empowers planning authorities to provide shelters for stray and unwanted cats and dogs and to assist bodies providing such facilities. Any extension of the powers of local authorities in this area would be primarily a matter for the Minister for the Environment. Naturally I, as Minister for State at the Department of Justice, would have no objection to any change that would relieve the Garda of duties in this area.

I have no information as to the number of dogs in the country.

Could the Minister of State give us the number of dog licences issued in 1979?

That is a separate question.

It arises out of Question No. 44.

I think it arises out of one of my questions.

No, the number of dog licences should be asked in a separate question.

I am sure the Minister of State has the information. If he has, I do not see what objection you, Sir, might have to his giving it to the House.

I have an objection. The Chair must allow only the questions that are on the Order Paper.

Surely I am permitted——

Deputy McMahon, a supplementary, please.

Is the Minister aware that there have been a number of incidents of children being bitten by dogs running uncontrolled on the streets and in some housing estates in and around the city of Dublin and in County Dublin as well, and that resulting from this many parents are afraid to send their children to a local shop for a simple message or to school and they must be accompanied——

A question, Deputy.

Is the Minister aware of all the negotiations that have been going on between his Department and the other Departments which he has mentioned and each time the matter was raised in this House it seemed to be a matter of passing the buck from one Minister to another? Is it not about time that the Minister responsible for Justice, Agriculture and whatever——

A question. This is a long statement.

Does the Minister not think that it is about time that he and his colleagues sat down and sorted out this problem once and for all in view of the terrible menance that is with us because of the increase in the number of unwanted and stray dogs in the country? Is the Minister further aware that in the area of north Wicklow and south Dublin 1,100 sheep have been killed in the last 12 months resulting in a loss of at least £45,000 to the sheep farmers in that area?

The Deputy is making a big long statement.

I am putting several questions to the Minister——

One supplementary question.

——to save the time that you have lost already, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I am only assisting you.

The Deputy is not assisting me and is not assisting Question Time by making big long statements.

I am aware of the damage that dogs can do. I am aware that it is a very serious situation when ever a dog bites a child or any person. I am also conscious of the serious damage that dogs can do to sheep as far as killing and maiming is concerned and I am satisfied that the Garda are making every possible effort in this regard, having regard to the considerable demands being made on their time at present and for some time past. At all times a constant review of this situation is being maintained and anything that the Deputy can contribute today by way of suggestion will be noted gladly by me.

I will come back to Deputy McMahon. I am calling Deputy Horgan.

Arising out of Question No. 44, to ask the Minister if he would outline his proposals for the control of stray and unwanted dogs, would he agree that the licencing system as it operates at present is a totally ineffective method of control because so few dogs are licenced? Would he consider making changes in that situation?

The ISPCA held a conference in April 1972 to discuss the problem of stray and unwanted dogs. Subsequently a working committee were formed and they drew up a scheme copies of which were forwarded to my Department and the Departments of Finance, Agriculture and Local Government as it was at that time. The scheme proposed that dog licence fees be increased to create a fund which would finance a dog warden service and to provide vans and animal shelters for collecting and accommodating stray dogs. The Commissioner of the Garda Síochána was consulted about the scheme and agreed that it was both practical and desirable but he did not consider that the garda should be involved in it in any way. Particularly he was opposed totally to the dog wardens operating from or dog shelters being set up at Garda stations, as proposed in the scheme.

What about local authorities?

The local authorities have at this time been grant-aided to provide dog shelters. Some local authorities have done that, I am sure. I do not know to what extent it has been done throughout the country, but that is a matter for the local authorities.

Can the Minister answer my first supplementary question about the number of dog licences issued in 1979?

If the Deputy puts down a question I will be in a position to give him the information.

In view of the fact that the ISPCA undertake the responsibility on behalf of the Garda in the Dublin area, is the Minister satisfied that these very important duties can be dealt with adequately by a voluntary organisation who are often short of funds? If the ISPCA need extra funds to do the job properly, would the Minister by sympathetic to ensuring that those funds would be forthcoming?

I am satisfied that where a problem arises for the ISPCA it will be looked at sympathetically with a view to giving whatever support is possible in any situation.

If the support is not possible but nevertheless is needed to ensure this statutory responsibility which the ISPCA have very kindly undertaken——

If it is not possible it is not practicable.

What I mean is if it is accepted that the law has to be carried out in this regard and if the ISPCA very generously undertake this job on behalf of the State, as it were, is it not fair to insist that they should be afforded at least the funds necessary to do that?

At the moment in the Dublin Metropolitan Area stray dogs are dealt with by the ISPCA who receive an annual grant from the Garda force for relieving the Garda of duties in that regard.

If it is not enough, will the Minister pay them?

That is a hypothetical question.

Would the Minister reconsider his Department's activities in this area and come up with an effective dog control scheme? Finally, can he tell us what measures he would propose in the case of an outbreak of rabies? God forbid that it would happen, but many people are frightened that it might. Thousands of dogs are roaming uncontrolled in the country and I do not see how it could be controlled effectively or quickly if we were unfortunate enough to have an outbreak of rabies.

I will be only too delighted to give the Deputy a reply to that if he will put down a question.

It is deplorable that the Minister should not be armed with replies to the questions.

A question on rabies is one for another Minister. A final supplementary from Deputy Harte.

I would like to accept that the Minister is sympathetic to the points of view being put forward from these benches. Would he accept that the number of licences being granted for dogs in the state must be very minimal considering the number of unlicenced dogs? This is an obvious position. Could the Minister tell the House when was a case last brought before a court for an unlicenced dog?

That again is a separate question that I will be only to delighted to answer if the Deputy puts down a question.

I am not trying to be awkward. Did the Minister say that the Garda were doing their best to overcome this difficulty?

That is right.

It is quite clear to everyone concerned that the number of dogs exceeds by far the number of licences issued. In what way are the Garda doing their best? I do not intend any disrespect to the Garda, but I think a lack of leadership from the very top is causing this and all the difficulties that go with this in connection with agriculture——

I have called Question No. 47. Question No. 46 has gone for written reply. The Deputy is making a very long statement.

——especially the dangers with regard to livestock and cattle. It is no good for the Minister to say if I put down a question he will give me a reply. It is action we want now. This matter has reached crisis proportions.

The Chair has already called Question No. 47.

Can the Minister indicate what steps he proposes to take in this matter?

I have given a reply to all the questions put down.

That is no good. What does the Minister propose to do about it?

Question No. 47, please.

I shall give a reply to any question put down.