asked the Minister for Justice the number of Garda sergeants promoted recently from a list, other than those who qualified by examination; and the percentage this represents of the total number of promotions in that rank.

Special provision in the Garda Síochána (Promotion) Regulations, 1960 permits the Commissioner to promote to the rank of sergeant members of the force who have not passed the qualifying examinations but who have shown special zeal and ability in the performance of their duties. However, the proportion of serving sergeants in this category to the total number of serving sergeants at various dates, for example, at the beginning of each year, is not readily available.

In the period since January 1970 the members promoted on the basis indicated constituted 13.9 per cent of all promotions to the rank of sergeant. So far this year eight out of a total of 49 were promoted on this basis.

Is this increase consistent with percentages in former years?

Yes, I believe so.

Is the Minister saying so?

Yes.

17.

asked the Minister for Justice if he has received a submission from the interview board which met recently under a chairman who was not the Commissioner; and if the panel of candidates submitted have been placed in order of merit.

The board completed the interviewing of candidates only on Friday, 20 June 1980 and I understand that its report, which is submitted to the Garda Commissioner, lists the candidates in order of merit.

Will the Minister accept from the Garda Commissioner the list based on order of merit?

The Minister has always accepted the list given by the Garda Commissioner.

The Minister has not always accepted such lists. Other Ministers accepted the lists given by Garda Commissioners.

The Deputy is now making a statement which is not permitted at Question Time.

Will the Chair permit me to ask a question?

The Deputy is not asking a supplementary; he is making statements.

According to Magill the Minister made an appointment that had not been recommended to him and threw the file at Peter Berry. He threw the file on the floor and walked out. He made an appointment despite the fact that the person concerned was placed fourth on the list.

Is the Minister saying that he will accept Commissioner McLaughlin's recommendations on merit and not interfere with them?

Not alone is the answer to Deputy Harte's question an unqualified "yes" but I have always accepted the reports and the order of merit given to me since I became Minister for Justice as, indeed, my predecessor and his predecessor did. I should like also to state that from my observations the only time a Commissioner's report was interfered with was during the time when the Fine Gael Party was the major party in Government in the early sixties.

We were not in power in the early sixties.

In the fifties.

The Minister's history is a little rusty.

The matter was raised in the Dáil in 1968 and Deputies can check up on that if they wish.

Why the delay for ten years before doing anything about it? The Minister should get his facts correct.

Deputy L'Estrange should allow questions to proceed.

I have my facts correct.

Did the Minister accept the recommendations of Commissioner Garvey on merit?

If the Deputy wishes to put down a specific question on that to me I will be glad to deal with it.

Arising out of what the Minister has said, that he and two former Ministers——

We cannot go back 20 years. The question applies to a recent interview. We must move on to the next question.

I am anxious to ask the Minister a supplementary arising out of his reply.

It does not arise. Supplementaries must arise out of the question.

Did the Minister accept the recommendations of Commissioner Garvey on merit when he made recommendations to the Minister?

Let me assure the Deputy — I am repeating this — that I have always accepted the recommendations in the order of preference given to me. I brought those recommendations exactly as they were given to me before the Government at the time the vacancies arose.

Did the Minister ever change the panel?

I never did.

Why did the Minister not contradict an announcement in the public press which stated something different?

The Chair is calling Question No. 18. Deputy Harte should resume his seat. I have called the next question and I want it answered.

I have no knowledge about what the Deputy is talking about.

There is no secret about it. It appeared in the public press.

I have called the next question.

The Minister is running away from this.

I made a clear statement on what I did and did not do. It is the Deputy's business whether he accepts or rejects what I said.

I have called the next question. If Deputy Harte does not stop interrupting and holding up Question Time he will have to leave the House.

It is not worth the Deputy's while going.

18.

asked the Minister for Justice the number of gardaí dismissed from the force during the period between Commissioner Garvey's purported dismissal and his voluntary resignation.

19.

asked the Minister for Justice the number of gardaí who were suspended from duty during the period between Commissioner Garvey's purported dismissal and his voluntary resignation.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 18 and 19 together.

The Garda authorities inform me that during the period mentioned, two gardaí were dismissed from the force; three were allowed to resign as an alternative to dismissal and the dismissal of six others was ordered. In addition, two recruit gardaí were discharged and four resigned before the order for their discharge came into effect.

I am also informed that a total of 18 members were suspended from duty, or had their period of suspension extended, during the period in question.

What is the position of the 18 members who had their services suspended?

That is a question I am not prepared to answer because it is a question of interpretation of law. I am not prepared, in the context of replying to a Parliamentary Question, to give legal advice to anybody.

Are those men still on half pay when suspended?

I do not know.

Is the Minister serious when he says that he does not know that when a garda is suspended he is on half pay?

The Deputy is asking for specific detail and I do not have that information but, if the Deputy wishes, I will get it for him.

Surely the least we can expect from the Minister is that he would know what happens when a garda is suspended? Has the Minister been in that office three years? He has been in office for three years and he does not know that a garda on suspension is on half pay.

Deputy Harte must permit the House to move on to the next question. If the Deputy is not prepared to allow questions to continue there is little use in us staying here.

There are 18 human beings involved and they do not know whether they are gardaí or not.

The Deputy should resume his seat. I am calling the next question.

I am not particularly concerned about Standing Orders when there are 18 members suspended.

There is no order when Deputy Harte comes into the House. The Deputy should resume his seat.

I am anxious to ask the Minister if he is concerned about the position of 18 men who at present do not know whether they are members of the Garda Síochána or not.

The Chair has asked the Deputy to resume his seat.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

We could have got that answer some time ago without the Chair interrupting.

If Deputy Harte did not frustrate Question Time we would get along well.

That is a very improper remark for the Chair. The Chair has been making that type of remark all afternoon and it ill becomes the Chair.

It ill becomes Deputy Keating to interfere with the rulings of the Chair. Deputy Keating is the one Member who will not respect a request of the Chair. We must move on to the next question.

On a point of order, is it proper for the Chair to make gratuitous remarks about individual Members in the House?

The Chair does not make that type of remark about anybody. The Chair has been appealing to and begging Deputies all afternoon to ask supplementaries properly so that Question Time can be run correctly but the Chair has not received co-operation. In that case what do Members expect the Chair to do?

Not to abuse Members. The Chair has no right to do that.

We expect the Chair to keep order.

Deputy Keating abuses the rulings of the Chair all the time and will not obey them.

I will not take personal abuse from the Chair or anybody else.

20.

asked the Minister for Justice if the consultations or discussions which he stated he would have with the Garda Representative Body, subsequent to the recent conference in Limerick, on issues arising out of that conference, have taken place; and, if so, if the remarks made in respect of some of these issues, in particular those relating to political interference with the course of justice have been clarified.

May I say, for the record that the association in question is the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, not the Garda Representative Association.

I recently had a meeting with representatives of the association in the course of which we discussed in some detail all items on an agenda which had been suggested by the association and which therefore must be presumed to represent the matters to which the association wished to accord priority at present. The agenda did not include any item concerning the charges referred to in the Question, and the association's representatives did not mention them except by a passing reference to the fact that they had already publicly stated that the charges were not directed at me personally.

A public statement was afterwards issued jointly by the association and myself to the effect that the meeting had been helpful and that it had been agreed that a further meeting would take place next month.

Does the Minister accept that on the last occasion this question was asked some five or six weeks ago the answer was held in abeyance until such time as the Minister had discussions with the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors in view of the seriousness of the allegations which clearly implied political interference with the course of Justice? Did the Minister raise this issue, as he indicated to this House that he would, on the occasion of that meeting and, if not, why not?

There were many charges made, many rumours published, many made during the period of time that the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors held their annual conference in Limerick last April. At that time I saw these allegations and when I went to meet the association at their annual dinner——

Question Time is over. The Minister should finish his answer.

I suppose I should say to Deputy L'Estrange and the others that at least if I have any differences with the association I am still prepared, unlike those who were here before me, to meet them. If I wanted to say to the association only what they wanted to hear, there would have been no point in my going. I took issue with them on a number of items that I felt I should take issue with them on and I made a number of suggestions to them. I told them if they had anything to say, any allegations to make — and they spoke about promotion, discipline, transfers, county councillors, politicians of all parties interfering with them — they were welcome to come and talk to me. I issued an invitation to them there on that night and later on that night before I left Limerick I was interviewed by RTE for a radio programme and again I repeated my invitation to them.

The Minister should be allowed to conclude without interruption. Question Time is over.

The full national executive of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors came to me and before they came I asked them to submit a list of the items they wished to discuss. We met for three hours or more only a fortnight or so ago and we had a very successful meeting, as the joint communique issued afterwards clearly indicated. There will be another meeting and if the association have anything to say to me on anything whatsoever I will gladly give them the opportunity of talking to me.

Arising out of that——

Question Time is over. The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.