asked the Minister for Finance (a) the total national debt atthe latest available date, (b) the annual cost of servicing the debt, (c) the annual cost of servicing the debt as a proportion of tax revenue, (d) the total amount of the debt in currencies other than Irish pounds, (e) the total cost of servicing the amount at (d), and (f) the amount of debt maturing in each of the next 5 years.

34.

asked the Minister for Finance the figures for (a) national debt, (b) borrowings of State-sponsored bodies and (c) local authority debt for the years ended December 1976, 1977, 1978 and 1979 and the estimated figure for the year ending December 1980.

: With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 33 and 34 together and, as the replies are in the form of a tabular statement, to circulate them with the Official Report.

(a) National debt outstanding: 31 December 1976, £3612 million; 31 December 1977, £4229 million; 31 December 1978, £5167 million; 31 December 1979, £6540 million; 30 September 1980, £7200 million (estimate); 31 December 1980, £7500 million (provisional estimate);

The following is the information sought by Deputy L'Estrange at (b) to (f) of his question.

(b) The annual cost of servicing the national debt outstanding on 30 September, 1980 is estimated at £835 million.

(c) 31 per cent using 1980 budget figures

(d) £1,800 million approximately at 30 September, 1980

(e) The annual cost of servicing the amount at (d) is £160 million approximately.

(f) The following debt is due to mature in the next five years

All the above figures are based on current interest and exchange rates.

It has not been possible to assemble all the information requested at (b) and (c) of Deputy O'Keeffe's question in the time available. If the Deputy will repeat his question in a week's time I hope to be in a position to supply the information. I would, however, refer the Deputy to my reply of 21 October 1980 to Question No. 354 put down by Deputy Barry Desmond. This gave details of the total indebtedness of State-sponsored commercial companies and statutory boards at end-1978, end-1979 and estimate as at end-1980.

: Would the Minister give the latest figure available for the national debt?

: The estimated figure for 30 September 1980 is £7,200 million.

: Is the Minister concerned that there should have been such a huge increase in the figure over the last four or five years?

: This is an issue which has been of interest for some time, not least, as indicated in the course of the economic debate here, during the period in which our predecessors held office. Of course it is important to ensure that moneys are applied to maintain the development of the economy. A relatively small proportion of the national debt is made up of foreign borrowing.

: Will the Minister not now admit that the Government are putting the country in pawn by borrowing so much? Four years ago when the national debt was half what it is today he accused the then Government of putting the country in pawn. If the money were being used for increased development or increased production there might be some reason for large borrowing but at present there does not seem any good reason for it.

: I do not recall that I or any one on this side of the House accused the then Government of putting the country in pawn. We would have used our words much more judiciously.

: No other words could be used now.

: We recognised what the Opposition today do not recognise, that statements, even from Opposition leaders, of the kind which Deputy FitzGerald made here are looked on rather seriously abroad where other Opposition leaders have a sense of responsibility. Whatever attention is paid to the statements of Deputy L'Estrange is, of course, entirely a different matter. I reject that there is any question of putting the country in pawn or, as Deputy FitzGerald said, going on our knees to a certain institution. Such a statement may have served his political purpose at home.

: Does the Minister claim that there is any sense of responsibility in a Government who promised in a manifesto to reduce borrowing but who have borrowed more in the past three years than was borrowed since the foundation of the State? The manifesto has gone up in smoke.

: The level of borrowing related to our GNP, which is a reasonable guide as to what it represents in the economy, is not nearly as high and I hope will never be as high as in the days when the Coalition Government were responsible.

: A final supplementary from Deputy O'Keeffe.

: Were the Government not supposed to bring it down to 8 per cent of GNP in the current year and is it not now 14 per cent?

: No. The target in the budget statement was 10.5 per cent and it will not be of the order being mentioned by some economists.

: I was referring to a certain document produced prior to the last election.

: I am calling the next question.

: The Minister made a charge against the Leader of the Opposition.

: It is not my business to deal with charges. I am simply trying to get through questions at a reasonable rate and I have allowed quite a number of supplementaries on this matter. I am calling the next question.

: I bow to your ruling but I want to point out that it is far more irresponsible for the Minister to be carrying on as he is than for the Leader of the Opposition to highlight the true situation.

: I bow to the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle and will not reply to that.