asked the Minister for Education if he will give full details of his revised management proposals for national schools; and whether it will be possible under these proposals for elected parent representatives to play a full part in the selection of teachers.

43.

asked the Minister for Education if, in view of the positive role which parents' representatives play as members of boards of management of primary schools, he will state the reasons for excluding parents' representatives from the process of selecting teachers; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 42 and 43 together.

Proposals which resulted from discussions between the Department of Education and representatives of the managerial and teacher organisations have yet to be placed before the Annual Congress of the Irish National Teachers Organisation next Easter for approval. In the circumstances I am not yet in a position to issue a revised constitution of boards of management and rules of procedure and I do not consider that it would be appropriate for me to comment in detail at this stage on aspects of the proposal referred to in the questions from the Deputies.

Is the Minister not aware that there is widespread opposition to and criticism of his proposals both from parents and from clerics in particular in relation to the failure to ensure that parents can continue to play a part in the selection of assistant teachers? Would he take that into account before making any final decision in the matter?

The Minister's proposals, as outlined in my answer, resulted from discussions between the managerial body, the teachers' organisation and the Department of Education and will come up for consideration at the teachers annual congress and I do not think it is appropriate for me to comment further.

Is it a reasonable inference to be drawn from the proposals that the parties to them are all of opinion that the chairman of a board of management, who is usually an unmarried cleric, has a greater competence in the matter of appointing teachers of children than the parents? How can the Minister reconcile that with the statement in the Constitution about the importance of parents and families as the primary educators of children?

The importance of parents is fully recognised, as the Deputy says, in the Constitution and in our practice in the management of primary schools. This is not a question of management at all but a question of selection of teachers. Certain agreed proposals came from this negotiating team and these will come up for consideration at the congress and it would not be helpful for me to make any comment on them.

Could the Minister say in what way the rights of parents are recognised, if as he has said they are recognised, when he has said that the proposals to be considered were made by a team which excluded any representatives of the parents? Does that not involve totally excluding the rights of parents rather than their vindication according to the Constitution?

The rights of parents are recognised in the fact that parents play a very important role in the management of schools. That is precisely the point I made.

The point the Minister made is that the proposals are now being put forward as a result of consultation between bodies of people excluding the parents. How does that vindicate the rights of parents? He has excluded them and he has three bodies of people, excluding parents, recommending that the parents should continue to be excluded from this function?

I understand that the Deputy is asking how in this context the rights of parents are vindicated and I am saying that it is in their playing a full part in the management of the schools in a scheme that is only in its infancy. Their rights are being vindicated.

Why then did the Minister exclude them from the group of three different organisations discussing those proposals?

Those three happen to be national organisations.

A final supplementary from Deputy Horgan.

Did I hear the Minister say—this would be most extraordinary news to everybody concerned with education—that this was not a question of management at all but a question of selection of teachers? Would the Minister not agree that the selection of teachers is one of the key aspects of management and always has been and that he is now in the process of conniving at or encouraging the exclusion of parents from this very legitimate function?

I do not think "conniving" is a legitimate word in this connection. I am telling the House that negotiations took place between three groups——

Excluding parents.

——that have national organisations which parents have not got.

They have.

I am telling the House they have not a representative national organisation.

The Minister does not recognise it.

The fact is that these three organisations came to a certain conclusion and are putting up proposals. I am not going to be drawn into making any further comment.

Ceist a 43.

Will the Minister——

No, I am sorry.

If the parents are not represented the Minister will have to safeguard their interests and is he going to do it or not?