asked the Minister for Education if he is aware that many parents of children in secondary schools consider that the secondary school system is discriminated against in relation to such matters as teacher-pupil ratios and funding; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

28.

asked the Minister for Education if he is aware of criticisms by the representatives of secondary schools who assert that they are not getting equality of treatment in respect of State finance for the running of their schools; if, in the circumstances he will either introduce a capitation system or a budget system of finance for all second-level schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take questions Nos. 27 and 28 together.

I am not aware that informed parents or representatives of secondary schools feel that the secondary system is discriminated against in the matter of staffing or finance.

In 1977 the ratio by general reference to which the number of teachers to whom incremental salary may be paid in secondary schools is calculated, was improved from one teacher to 20 pupils to one teacher to 19 pupils. The principal, vice principal and in some categories of school a guidance teacher and a remedial teacher may be appointed outside the quota.

Since 1978 the tuition grants to secondary schools have been increased on three occasions. As from the commencement of the school-year 1981-82 the grant is being increased from £70 to £77. The tuition grant has accordingly been increased since 1977 by 54 per cent. The capitation grant was also increased from £30 to £32 in 1979.

Additional substantial aid was given to secondary schools in 1980 through the fact that my Department assumed responsibility for the amount of the employers' contributions under the pay related social insurance scheme. The provision in the Estimates for 1981 in respect of such charge is £4.2 million. Since 1980 also the Department of Education recoup the full cost of substitute teachers in certain cases as against a recoupment of two-thirds of the cost in the immediately preceeding period.

I may add that my objective in the apportioning of the financial resources available to me for educational purposes is to do so in such a way as to enable each type of school to fulfil its functions satisfactorily.

Is the Minister aware that the percentage of the current budget expenditure on education is decreasing year by year under his guidance? Referring directly to his reply, is he not aware of representations made to him by the secretaries of secondary schools about the funding of secondary schools, especially in relation to the capitation grant in lieu of fees? Is he aware of the representations made — I think he met them — by the Catholic School Parents' Association who were quite vociferous about discrimination against secondary schools in relation to funding and the provision of teachers? Is he aware that there is grave discontent among parents of children attending secondary schools?

To take the Deputy's first point, which did not seem to be relevant——

Neither was the Minister's answer.

——our percentage of GNP expenditure on education is one of the highest in the EEC.

We have more children than anywhere else.

Thank God for that. The guts of £700 million——

Would we be the lowest per child?

——have been provided in the current budget. I have indicated in my lengthy and detailed reply that this area is not being neglected. If I wanted to gild the lily I could indicate that a very substantial percentage of the capital expenditure on post-primary education is going to the 131 on-going or new starts in the secondary area.

Will the Minister indicate the grounds on which he distinguishes between the parents whom Deputy Collins knows to be upset with the situation and the informed people whom the Minister knows are not upset with the situation?

I do not discriminate between parents.

How does the Minister explain the distinction?

Can I take it from the reply that the Minister and the Government are satisfied there is no discrimination in secondary schools on the question of the teacher-pupil ratio and funding?

The Deputy heard me covering all the areas——

Can I have yes or no?

No, the Deputy cannot. I gave all the information in regard to funding, including a little bit of additional information on the capital programme, and I am proud to stand over that.

Who was the Minister for Education who increased the pupil-teacher ratio in secondary schools from 1:15 to 1:20?

I have given the House the information appropriate to the question asked. Since I took office I have improved the teacher-pupil ratio.

Which Minister increased the teacher-pupil ratio?

Certainly no Labour Minister ever made any input into the progress of education here.

The remaining questions will appear on tomorrow's Order Paper.