asked the Taoiseach whether the declaration made by the Government in paragraph 5 of the agreed Communiqué following the Sunningdale Conference on 2 December 1973 is accepted by the Government as still expressing Government policy.

2.

asked the Taoiseach in which respect, if any, the Government are dissatisfied with the declaration made by the British Government in paragraph 5 of the agreed Communiqué following the Sunningdale Conference on 2 December 1973; whether it is the Government's present policy to seek from the British Government a commitment or undertaking clearly distinguishable from, and going clearly beyond, that declaration; and, if so, in what substantial, rather than merely verbal respect, such a new commitment or undertaking would differ from that declaration.

I propose, with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

The Government believe that change in the status of Northern Ireland will only come about with the consent of a majority of the people there. As I have said before this is a simple recognition of the practical realities of the situation.

We believe, however, that a declaration by the British Government favouring Irish unity would open the way towards a just and lasting peace, through negotiation between the two Governments and representatives of both major traditions in the North — to the benefit not only of the people of this island but also of relations between our two countries.

I think the Taoiseach answered the first two questions together. I could not hear all of what the Taoiseach said — it is not his fault I know — but I believe he said that he would wish from the British Government an expression of their favouring a solution which would integrate Northern Ireland with this State. But would such an expression on the part of the British differ in substance from what they already declared in 1973 and from which I have not understood them ever to have departed?

I think it would differ, yes, but apart from that I think it is important that a declaration of that sort should be renewed from time to time.

Would the Taoiseach and his Government be then perfectly happy if the British were to renew the commitment given at the time of Sunningdale in the terms in which they then gave it? Would that not meet the substance of what the Taoiseach says he is looking for now?

No.

Would the Taoiseach explain to the House what is the difference of substance — I am not talking about flapdoodle; I am talking of a difference of substance — between their indicating willingness to support the wish of the majority for unity, should the majority ever wish it, and their favouring the idea of unity. What is the difference?

I see the difference as being the difference between negative and positive. The Sunningdale declaration by the British Government was in the following terms: The British Government solemnly declare that it was and would remain their policy to support the wishes of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland — that is the first statement. The present status of Northern Ireland is that it is part of the United Kingdom; that is the second statement. If in the future the majority of the people of Northern Ireland should indicate a wish to become part of a united Ireland the British Government would support that wish. I want them to go further than that and to indicate that they favour the unity of this country. I think there is an important difference.

Does the Taoiseach not agree that the difference is next to invisible if they have nearly nine years ago committed themselves, as they did here to support a majority wish in the North for change when that wish emerged? Does the Taoiseach suppose that if they were to say in advance of that emerging, "We would like to see it emerge" that would make it emerge any faster?

What I am saying in my reply is that what I would like to see is a declaration by the British Government favouring Irish unity. In the Sunningdale declaration there is simply a statement that if the people of Northern Ireland wished to become part of a united Ireland the British Government would support it. I think there is a very important difference between the two statements.

What I am trying to get the Taoiseach to concentrate on is this: He said in his original reply if I heard it properly that he accepted that the wish of the majority of the people in the North was a precondition to a change in that status. I understood him to say that he accepted that just as the Government of 1973 accepted it. What makes him suppose that a different form of words now adopted by the British and incorporating the word "favour" rather than the word "support" would make that majority wish emerge one minute sooner than it otherwise might?

That is a different question.

It so clearly arises out of this and is so clearly of the substance of it that I can only conclude that the Taoiseach does not want to answer and that he is hoping that he can play to the Gallery in his usual way on this subject.

I cannot do more than state my position. If the Deputy does not wish to accept that, it will cause disagreement between us but he must accept that I see a clear difference between the Sunningdale declaration by the British Government to the effect that if the people of Northern Ireland indicated a wish to become part of a united Ireland the British Government would support that wish, and what I would now like to happen, namely, that the British Government would declare that they favour Irish unity.

I must accept — and I think this moment is important to record — that it is the first time, if I am not doing him an injustice, that I can remember hearing the Taoiseach say in so many words that he accepted that the will of the majority of the people of the Six Counties was essential, that their willingness to accept a change in their status was essential before such a change could come about. I never heard him say that before, I believe. But what I want to know is this, and I cannot see it as a separate question or that he should be inhibited from dealing with it: what is there in the formula which he now wants the British to substitute for their Sunningdale formula, a thrawneen — anything, the smallest iota — which will push anybody in the North of Ireland one minute sooner towards a willingness which they do not now entertain to change their status?

I think it would make an enormous difference.