asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware of the very great hardship being caused to many tenants who have been subjected to very substantial rent increases following the passing of the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act, 1982; and the steps he intends to take to protect the livelihood of those tenants many of whom are elderly and unable to pay the increases being granted by the courts.

A rent allowance scheme is in operation in my Department since July 1982 when the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act, 1982, became law. The scheme is designed to assist those on low incomes who are tenants of dwellings which were formerly controlled under the Rent Restrictions Acts and whose rents have been increased by the courts.

The amount of allowance payable under the scheme depends on the person's means and the amount of the increased rent. The maximum allowance is the difference between the old and the new rent, if the old rent was £3 a week or more. Otherwise, it is the difference between £3 and the new rent. In virtually all cases, therefore, the maximum allowance will cover the full rent increase. Nearly everyone who is dependent on social welfare payments or whose income is at that level, will qualify for the maximum allowance. Persons on higher incomes will not receive full compensation for a rent increase.

When the means of a tenant who is a married person exceeds £70 a week, £40 if single, there are graded reductions in the allowance. The allowance will ensure that nobody will suffer hardship as a result of high rent increases granted by the courts.

Is the Minister aware that the initial intention was that the courts would be conducted on an informal basis and is he aware that these courts are operated in a manner which I regard as a national scandal? Elderly people are being intimidated and being confronted with reports by architects and surveyors with which they are not able to cope. I am sure the Minister knows that some of these rents have been increased from £1 per month to £30 per week in some cases. Some of those people are in their 70s and 80s. Will the Minister ensure that action will be taken to alleviate this appalling scandal that is occurring throughout Dublin? Can he tell me how many people are affected and how much money the Department have paid out?

Any question about the courts or the way in which they are operated would be a separate matter. The question is about the people who have had their rents increased.

I am asking for information in the light of the contents of the Minister's reply. He said no hardship was being felt by the people affected. Not only is hardship being felt but elderly people are being intimidated in these courts. My question was factual.

It is still a separate question.

Questions Nos. 23 and 24 in the names of Deputies Allen and O'Hanlon deal with the numbers of people affected.

Why can I not be given the information now?

It is the subject of questions further down the list.

Can the Minister tell me if social welfare legislation is designed to cover the total legal costs incurred by tenants when they have to go to the courts? Can he say if the valuers' fees and costs will be covered by social welfare legislation.

The Deputy is aware that the liability for costs is a matter for the owner of the property. The tenant does not pay ——

With respect, Sir, the Minister ——

Let the Minister answer.

—— unless the owner of the premises pleads inability to pay.

How many people were affected? The Department should be able to give that information. I have had this question down for some months. The situation in Dublin is scandalous.

I cannot give the correct figures because I do not have them. It is understood that an estimated 30,000 houses ——

Question No. 25 asks for this information.

That is what I tried to convey but the Deputy does not want to wait.

A product of Deputy Brady's own legislation.

That is a very snide remark. The Deputy is putting a completely different slant on everything.

Are Fianna Fáil now——

The Deputy knows it was a decision of the Supreme Court and had nothing to do with me personally.

How much money is available to the Department for the relief of hardship cases?

Ten million pounds.

Further to my previous supplementary I must correct the Minister. He said legal costs are the responsibility of the landlord ——

The Deputy must ask a question.

Is the Minister aware that that information is not correct? I have been to the courts and have seen for myself that costs are imposed on the tenants. Is the Minister aware of that?

The owner of the property is liable to pay and if he cannot pay, he has to prove it.

May I ask a final supplementary?

I am calling Deputy B. Ahern and then Deputy Brady, and will move to the next question.

If a person has a few pounds in the bank is there a means test involved? We have heard of people paying £1 a week rent which was increased to £30 a week. If such a person has £2,000 or £3,000 in a bank, would he be covered by the social welfare subsidy? As I see it there is no flaw in the legislation; the problem is the way the legislation is being interpreted. The courts are taking into account only the market value of the property, not the other——

That is not the responsibility of this Minister; it is the responsibility of the Minister for Justice.

We hope to remedy that situation when we bring in our Fair Rents Tribunal, against which Fianna Fáil voted ——

When will that be?

In the next session.

I want this opportunity to ask one question which arises directly——

May I have a reply to my question about the means test?

There is a means test. If a married couple have a weekly income of £70 and a single person £45 ——

If an old person had a few thousand pounds in the bank — as they normally do to cover funeral expenses — would he be covered under the social welfare legislation?

When a small sum is involved obviously it would not interfere with his entitlement.

Is there a upper limit?

Yes, but I do not have the actual figure in front of me.

If the Minister sends it to me later I will be happy.

Until this legislation is on our Statute Book, this law the law is operating at its ugliest in this city ——

Despite Deputy Molony's snide remarks, some compassion should be shown for these people——

We identified these problems when Fianna Fáil were in office, but they would not listen to us.

Order.

That is a shameful attitude. Deputy Molony should be ashamed of himself.

Order, please. These late nights do not appear to be agreeing with some Deputies. Perhaps some of them should have a rest.

We pointed out these problems last year but Fianna Fáil would not listen.

Deputy Molony should keep out of it.

Deputy Molony made an allegation against Deputy Brady and that remark should be withdrawn.

I did not make an allegation against Deputy Brady personally; my remark related to the Fianna Fáil Party. You are all the same.

The Chair did not hear Deputy Molony make any allegation and I am calling the next question.

I can assure you he made an allegation and he should be called on to withdraw it.