asked the Minister for Agriculture if he is aware that large numbers of farmers are in severe financial difficulty and are experiencing repayment problems; and if he will initiate immediate discussions with lending institutions to ameliorate the position.

For over a year there has been a scheme specifically designed to assist farmers in severe financial difficulty. This is known as the rescue package. In addition to this scheme, which reduces interest paid on eligible borrowings by as much as 8.75 per cent and is intended to cover £190 million of advances, there are EEC and national 5 per cent interest subsidies schemes in relation to borrowings for farm modernisation.

My Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, and I, as well as officials of my Department, are having ongoing discussions with the lending institutions about the situation of farmers who are finding difficulty in meeting their commitments. The aim is to ensure a uniform and sympathetic approach and my understanding is that the lending institutions are prepared to be helpful to any farmer in difficulties who goes in and discusses his problems with them.

Could the Minister tell the House the total indebtedness of Irish farmers to lending institutions and, in view of the fact that only £190 million is in the rescue package, does he intend to raise it to a higher level?

I regret that I have not the figure the Deputy is seeking. I have seen newspaper reports in the last few days to the effect that the sum is in excess of £400 million. I am just talking off the top of my head because I have not that specific figure. The scheme is confined because of financial restraints. As I told the Deputy in reply to a question last week we are committed to spending about £30 million over a five-year period. We have no intention at the moment of going outside that limitation.

My information is that it is much closer to £2,000 million. There is £1,350 million for the associated banks alone and a further £400 million for the ACC. Notwithstanding that, it appears that, in view of the Exchequer payment to the rescue package, at least 10,000 farmers find themselves unable to meet their commitments and that at least 36 seizure orders have been issued by the ACC alone in recent months. Has the Minister any plans for asking the lending institutions to at least reduce their rate of interest in view of the inflation rate at the moment and maybe extend the terms of borrowing?

I would not dispute the Deputy's figure as I have not got the exact figure. As regards approaching the lending institutions, I have already met the ACC and impressed on them my worry that farmers who are making a reasonable attempt to repay their borrowing should be dealt with in a very sympathetic manner. I understand that orders have been taken out against 36 farmers, as the Deputy stated. I am also informed that these are cases where the ACC were aware that the people concerned had considerable assets and where they would have expected them to have made some attempt to meet repayments and such an effort was not forthcoming. It was only in very drastic circumstances, where an honest effort was not made to meet repayments, that the ACC actually moved. I would not condemn the ACC for doing that. I believe they are correct if they feel people have assets and are making no attempt to meet repayments. If I felt that they were acting against people who could not reasonably be expected to make repayments I would certainly be very annoyed. I am happy that the ACC are not doing that. I intend to meet the associated banks within the next week or two and I will be putting the same point to them.

(Limerick West): I am glad the Minister is making the effort to meet the associated banks. In view of the slowness in processing applications to date, could the Minister or his Department have a greater input into the processing of these since the State is putting up part of the cost involved?

It is a source of continuing worry to us that the applications are taking such a considerable time to process. As I stated here previously this is due to a variety of factors, the main one being the complex nature of this scheme and the difficulty in getting farmers to prepare plans which will show that they can become viable as a result of partaking in this scheme. Another great source of difficulty is that a number of the farmers who have not had their applications fully processed are people who have borrowed from two or more lending institutions. That creates difficulties and requires a certain amount of co-ordination between the farmer concerned and the lending institutions involved. There is a reluctance by certain people who are in trouble to actually go in and speak to the banks and the ACC. That is another major contributory factor. People are loath to approach the lending institutions. I have repeatedly said, as the lending institutions have said, that they are only too willing to discuss these matters with the people involved.

Deputy David Molony.

(Limerick West): I have a further question to ask.

That could exclude Deputy David Molony. I called two Deputies from the Opposition side and then I noticed Deputy David Molony.

(Limerick West): This follows on from my other question. I will lose the trend if I have to wait.

The Chair cannot allow that because that could exclude some other Deputy. That is tantamount to hogging questions.

(Limerick West): Would the Minister consider that there should be a greater involvement by the local ACOT office and by the personnel of the local office in order to speed up the operation?

I believe the ACOT office have been most helpful wherever their services are required. I will again make the point to ACOT to see if they can be of any further assistance.

In view of the fact that there is such a large number of farmers, who have not qualified for aid under the farm rescue package, because they have not been able to come up with plans showing that they can become viable within three years, and that those people appear to be farmers who are in the worst mentioned position of all — they are gone beyond help — would the Minister consider it desirable that some scheme of assistance be made available to those farmers as otherwise, as is the case at present——

That is becoming a speech.

Is the Minister aware of this? Would he consider having some other scheme introduced, because many of those farmers at present are understocked and cannot get finance from the banks to stock their farms?

I am very well aware of this. That is the primary reason for my concern. If we could get the cases, which can be got out of the way, settled fairly quickly, we would be in a position to study in greater detail the type of cases referred to by Deputy Molony. Each case is individual and differs from any other case. There is an enormous amount of work involved. I hope we can wrap up the rescue package, which is the source of the question here today, by the end of this year, enabling us to study in greater detail the type of problem which has been referred to. That does not mean that we are excluding examination of such problems in the meantime. That is why I am meeting the lending institutions. I want to see if we can work out some scheme which will give a sympathetic understanding to their cases.

Would the Minister agree with me that in the first instance, plans were drawn up with the banks and the farmers when the original loan was made? Would he agree with me that because of the drastic increase in interest rates we now find ourselves in the position we are in? Would he not insist that the banks take account of this and in instances where the local bank manager is very anxious that his client gets aid, which the banks at top level are not anxious to give, would the Minister's Department see to it that where the local manager is on the farmer's side this should be reacted to?

That is one of the main reasons why we are meeting the lending institutions. I am concerned that one bank in particular may have centralised its processing of applications. I consider that to be very unhealthy. The processing should be done locally at branch level. Some banks may feel that they are losing heavily because of those bad debts but the humane attitude would be to deal with them locally rather than in Dublin. That is a point I will convey to the banks.

Will the Minister accept that with the passing of time and with the accumulation of interest and the continuing demoralisation of the farmers involved, decisive and urgent action must be taken or else the problem will be incapable of being solved because the farmers will have had to sell out?

That is the problem we have to face. That probability exists in many cases. It is a great worry to us but we are endeavouring to be as helpful as possible.

Will the Minister give us the terms of reference of the monitoring committee for the rescue package and will he let me know how many Departmental representatives are on the committee?

I do not have that information but I have no complaints about the activities of the monitoring committee and everybody on the committee is happy with the way it is working.

We have dealt with this question. I will allow a final question from Deputy Noel Treacy.

Is the Minister aware that a small percentage of farmers will get little or no benefit from the rescue package? Is the Minister further aware that the attitude of the lending institutions is that these farmers should dispose of some of their assets? Another attitude is that they should get planning permission for land along the roadside and sell sites. Is the Minister further aware that because of the cost of getting the planning permission and due to the capital gains tax situation there will be a very small benefit to the farmers and it will have little or no effect on the amount of money they owe to lending institutions? Has the Minister any proposals to ensure that young farmers with families will be preserved in agriculture for the good of the country?

That series of questions covers such a vast area that I could be here for weeks answering them. I would need a team of officials from my Department to advise me. Even within the confines of the rescue package some farmers will have to sell off portions of their land; it will not only be farmers outside the scope of the rescue package. It would be very hard to solve some of the cases without some assets having to be sold off.

4.