Question No. 7. We have spent half an hour on this question.

7.

asked the Minister for Justice the specific measures with which he plans to tackle the increasing problem of the theft and vandalising of cars in urban and suburban communities.

8.

asked the Minister for Justice if he will state in view of the recent attacks on Garda patrol cars in Dublin northside causing serious risk to lives of gardaí and the public, the urgent action he proposes to take to eliminate this serious situation.

9.

asked the Minister for Justice the immediate action he proposes to take to alleviate the fear and terror among the people of Fairfield, Darndale and Bonnybrook, Dublin, arising out of the constant joyriding by youths through these areas and with particular reference to the ramming of two Garda vehicles in the Fairfield-Ferrycarrig area during Monday night, 7 March 1983.

10.

asked the Minister for Justice if, in view of the inadequacy of the present law relating to the theft of cars, he will state the action he proposes to take in regard to the existing penalties; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

11.

asked the Minister for Justice if he has had discussions with the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána regarding the use of spiked chains in regard to the increase in the theft of cars; and, if so, the outcome of such discussions.

12.

asked the Minister for Justice the action he proposes to take in the immediate future to combat the increasing theft of motor cars.

(Limerick East): I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 12, inclusive, together.

I am informed by the Garda authorities that they carried out a detailed examination of these problems some months ago. As a result they introduced a number of measures, such as the deployment of more suitable cars to the areas concerned, which they expect will help to control the situation. They are considering other proposals as well. However, I could not give details of the various measures that have been taken and that are being considered because, as Deputies will appreciate the publication of such measures would militate against their effectiveness, something that has in fact been mentioned in this context by the Garda themselves.

With regard to penalties, the penalty for the larceny of a car if the charge is tried on indictment is imprisonment for up to five years and up to ten years in the case of a second offence. If the charge is tried summarily under the Criminal Justice Act, 1951, the penalty is a fine not exceeding £100 or imprisonment not exceeding 12 months, or both such fine and such imprisonment. A conviction for larceny requires proof of an intention to deprive the owner permanently of the car. The most usual provable offence is unauthorised taking under section 112 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, as amended. A person who contravenes this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50 or to imprisonment for up to six months, or to both such fine and imprisonment. The unauthorised taking of a car invariably involves for the driver, as with stealing, the offence of driving without insurance for which the penalty is a fine of up to £100 or imprisonment for up to six months, or both. In addition there could also be offences relating to the actual driving of the car. I might add that it is open to the District Court to impose consecutive sentences and that the generally accepted view that an overall maximum penalty of up to 12 months may be imposed for summary offences.

The view could reasonably be taken that at least in respect of some of the offences in question the penalties are adequate. However, I am reviewing the level of penalties for these offences in so far as I am concerned. A revision of penalties under the Road Traffic Acts would be a matter for the Tánaiste and Minister for the Environment.

As regards Question No. 11, the position is that the law allows the Garda Síochána to use equipment such as spiked chains in relation to certain serious offences, as defined in section 8 of the Criminal Law Act, but the Garda authorities have consistently taken the view — for what seems to me to be understandable reasons — that the use of spikes or similar equipment, except in exceptional circumstances, could give rise to more serious problems than it would solve. I should add that in general I am not prepared to disclose whether particular topics have been the subject of discussion between the Commissioner and myself, as I must reserve the right to talk to the Commissioner from time to time about matters of mutual interest on a confidential basis. It is clear from what I have said earlier that the Garda authorities have been consulted.

Will the Minister accept that the measures that are being taken at present are just not working satisfactorily? How can the Minister bring the various kinds of measures together to get a higher success rate? There are sentences available but people who have been sentenced and are out on bail are stealing cars again. There is virtually no safe place to have a car around this city or in other cities to a large extent. What measures specifically can the Minister see being introduced to get some improvement in this situation, which at present is horrific and is leading to deaths? Has the Minister drafted in the Task Force to support the local Garda in special cases and are there any measures which he sees as being likely to get on top of this problem?

(Limerick East): It is difficult to prove that the intention of somebody taking a car to joy-ride was to hold the car and keep it permanently. If you cannot prove that you cannot charge the person with larceny. What happens then is that the charge is taking the car without the owner's consent. The level of the sanctions here, the fines and imprisonment, is something that I am having examined. One could argue that they are not adequate. Certainly the statistics on the taking of cars without owners' consent are fairly horrifying. I am aware of the subsequent dangers to life and limb, the possibility of accidents involving stolen cars and so on. Many of the people who take these cars are extremely young and have little experience of driving.

There is one point I should like to make — I might well have made it earlier also — that it surprises me that people will pay £60,000, £70,000 and £80,000 for a house and take very few precautions to make it burglar-proof when a small additional investment could help quite a lot. It also surprises me that people are so casual about cars for which they have paid perhaps £10,000, £11,000 and £12,000 when the problem is so serious. I am in no way trying to put the onus on the people who are in effect the injured parties in these cases, but the whole area of prevention of crime involves more than the Garda and will have to involve individuals as well.

Is the Minister aware of the very serious concern among the general public at the ease with which these young car thieves, vandals — describe them as you will — are driving to Garda stations, particularly on the north side, openly and deliberately taunting the gardaí, inviting a chase? On a number of occasions it has happened — in the case of Coolock Garda Station — that four squad cars and three patrol vans have been damaged and put out of action on the same evening, all within 90 minutes. In view of the widespread concern this type of action causes surely the time has come for some measures to be taken to eliminate this problem. It is not good enough for the Minister to say that the situation is being examined. Can the Minister say when we can expect such measures as will help in eliminating this problem?

(Limerick East): I am aware of the specific incidents to which the Deputy referred. Certainly they were discussed and talked about when the original questions were put down some months ago. The situation has improved somewhat recently. I do not think we can isolate one area of lawlessness, crime or vandalism, from all other areas. As Deputy Woods rightly said earlier, we need an overall package. I do not think specific measures to deal with one particular problem necessarily constitute the correct approach. We must continuously examine the effectiveness of the Garda on the ground, the relationships between the Garda and the community, the laws required, and if the sanctions imposed by those laws are a sufficient deterrent to bring about a solution.

In the case of cars being stolen for joy-riding purposes — which is the main problem — rather than larceny of cars, the responsibility of the Minister for Justice extends to people of 16 years and upwards. Under 16 years of age the treatment of offenders is really a matter for the Department of Education. I understand that the Minister for Health, in his Children Bill, will be examining various issues which arise here.

I am not trying to evade the seriousness of the point the Deputy raised, but I do not think it is possible to succeed if we approach specific problems with a specific solution which is not related to the overall problem. I would prefer to see how we proceed on an approach which involves a whole package of measures to attack the problem globally.

Deputy G. Mitchell rose.

I appreciate what the Minister has been saying——

Deputy Gay Mitchell need not be looking at the Chair as if he had some reason for grievance. There are six questions being taken together here. Would Deputy Mitchell please resume his seat? The Chair considers that it is his duty to be fair. He adjudges that he is being fair by first allowing supplementaries from Deputies who have put down the questions and that is what he is doing.

I merely rise, a Cheann Comhairle, to protest that a look on my face does not relate to anything on the Order Paper and I would thank you, sir, not to make remarks about a look on my face.

The Deputy has no reason to complain.

I did not raise any complaint.

Whilst I appreciate what the Minister has said in relation to the overall package, I would suggest to him that, when there is an on-going very high concentration of joy-riding in a particular area — to which Deputy Woods and Deputy V. Brady referred — such as that part of the north side of the city area about which we jointly make representations, then I would suggest to the Minister that there must be a very serious look taken at the short-term as well as long-term measures. Might I ask the Minister to address himself to a couple of questions. What are his views in relation to the present measures whereby Garda patrol cars pursue joy-riders? From my information there seems to be a difference of opinion within the Garda Force on that procedure. Indeed I should like to put on record that I am very impressed with their continuous commitment to deal with it. That is one point to which I should like the Minister to address himself. Also, because we are dealing with juveniles, with young people in the main, what significance does the Minister think an extension of the juvenile liaison scheme would have in helping to combat that problem? From my experience of it, in the inner city, I feel it would have a significant contribution to make. I understand that, in the Coolock Garda Station there are only two members of the juvenile liaison scheme operating at present, which I consider totally inadequate for such a large, young population, bearing in mind the implications of the socio-economic groupings in that area. Perhaps the Minister would also address himself to that.

The Minister has made two points already in relation to questions that have arisen. One was with regard to the spiked chains. There is a question mark over the pursuit of joy-riders by Garda patrol cars. Could the Minister comment at greater length on the apprehension felt among the Garda Force about the use of spiked chains? Secondly, could the Minister comment at greater length on the penalties? I am not satisfied that the penalties obtaining for unauthorised taking or stealing of cars are in any way adequate. Does the Minister agree that these need to be more severe?

(Limerick East): To take the last point first, I outlined what were the penalties for the two offences which are akin to the taking of cars, whether it be taking them permanently, larceny, or unauthorised taking. I have said already that in so far as they relate to my Department I will undertake to look at the adequacy of those penalties.

On the question of the spiked chains, I should say that the equipment is available to the Garda but they have taken a decision at present not to use such equipment. I agree with that decision because there would be subsidiary dangers associated with their use which, in certain circumstances, would make it very difficult to justify their use. I understand the particular type of chain Deputies have in mind is something that can be placed across a road, which, rather than physically stopping a car, punctures the four tyres simultaneously. At the speed at which certain joy-riders drive stolen cars I am sure Deputies are aware of the danger of a simultaneous blow-out of four tyres in a city street situation. Therefore there are practical difficulties. I am quite sure that the Garda will be examining the problem again but there are real, practical difficulties and I do not think a solution lies there.

I will have examined the suggestion with regard to the juvenile liaison scheme, in particular with regard to the Coolock Garda Station the Deputy mentioned. There is scope for expansion of the scheme and anything which places the emphasis on prevention rather than detection of crime in present circumstances should be very carefully examined. Of course, when children steal cars and drive them at high speed through cities, it must be remembered that they do have parents, and I suggest that parents have a responsibility in this regard also.

Is the Minister aware that Dublin Corporation will provide £11 million for malicious damages this year, a lot of such damage caused by the stealing of cars. In view of that, would the Minister consider contacting the car assembly companies or reviewing the legislation in this area to ensure that these cars, some of them very expensive and fast-moving, are properly secured, in other words, that anti-theft devices are properly fitted to them? The Minister might bear in mind the fact that car assembly in Ireland need not continue beyond the year 1985, which would strengthen the Minister's hand. Would the Minister examine this area and consider contacting car assembly companies or examining the legislation in this area?

(Limerick East): I am not aware of the statistical information given by the Deputy or the proportion of that which is due to damage to cars or caused by stolen cars. I take the point the Deputy has made and, indeed, I have made it already. Certainly the individual owners of cars, for their own security and considering the valuable asset a car is, should look at the possibility of installing anti-theft devices such as burglar alarms and so on. I will examine the suggestion to see if it would be appropriate for me to contact the manufacturing companies.

I had intended asking a question relating to discussions with the motor car industry but because it would be repetitive I will not put it to the Minister.

The Minister has already covered the subject of spiked chains but I should like to ask him if he is satisfied from his conversations with his counterparts abroad that spiked chains have been used successfully in many European countries. Is he aware that police forces elsewhere do not appear to have the same reservations the Garda have? Will the Minister comment on that?

(Limerick East): I am not aware that it is widely practised or has been successful abroad. I am not disagreeing with the Deputy that such may be so but I will have that looked at.

Is it the intention of the Minister to bring in the changes he referred to in regard to existing penalties for stealing cars? I understand that at the moment a person caught doing that can be charged only with stealing petrol. Is it the intention of the Minister to introduce the changes this year in view of the gravity of the problem of stolen cars in Dublin?

(Limerick East): I am planning to have the matter examined. A decision has been taken to examine the penalties with a view to deciding the appropriate penalties for such offences. We will be bringing in a criminal justice Bill in the next session and that will be appropriate for some of the measures I have in mind but not for them all because some relate specifically to legislation which is the responsibility of other Departments.

I note what the Minister has said about the decision not to use these spiked chains for the present, but I suggest to him that that question is one which the new committee on crime and vandalism might look at and obtain some information from abroad. I have seen on the north side of Dublin adults in cars terrorising small children on narrow roads and in cul-de-sacs. That is a factual situation and for such cases there is a need for the use of spiked chains. I would welcome a further study and investigation on this matter.

I should like to ask the Minister to address himself to a difficulty within the Force on whether or not to pursue in patrol cars the joyriders. That is a burning question on the north side of Dublin and my information is that there seems to be a difference of opinion on that. What is the view of the Department? We need reassurance for the people of those areas.

(Limerick East): That type of decision is a matter for the Garda authorities but I will check the policy decision on it. I would have doubts about the efficacy of chasing stolen cars at high speed.

Does the Minister's definition of larceny apply to motor cars only or does it apply also to a person who steals a television set from a house and says he only took it to watch a football match? What is the definition? Does it apply to cars only?

The Chair is tempted to answer that but it would be out of order. We cannot enlarge the scope of the question to include television sets.