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Dáil
‹ Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Social Welfare Benefits.

Means testing children's allowances

Summary

De Rossa asks whether children's allowances will be means tested. Desmond says his Department has no current plans and cannot operate such a test, while expressing support for his leader’s views; questions about taxation and future policy remain unresolved, and the Chair closes the exchanges.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if it is intended to introduce a means test for children's allowances.

Comment on this

I have no plans at the present time for the introduction of a means test by my Department as a condition of entitlement to children's allowances.

Comment on this

Can we take it that the statement made by the leader of the Labour Party was not factual and that he was only speaking for himself?

Comment on this

He was thinking aloud.

Comment on this

The leader of the Labour Party expressed views and I personally support the views of my leader in that regard. I assure the Deputy that as a recipient of children's allowance to the tune of £250 a year, tax free, I see no reason why I should not hand back something to the State.

Comment on this

Can I take it that when the Minister says at present he has no plans that there will not be an introduction of a means test for children's allowances in the budget of 1984?

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

We cannot anticipate the budget at Question Time.

Comment on this

My Department, as the Deputy is aware are incapable of operating a means test. It could not operate through the Department of Social Welfare.

Comment on this

Could I ask the Minister to confirm something which he said in the House yesterday, which is in relation to children's allowances?

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

It may be, but is it on this particular question?

Comment on this

Yes, it is. I understood him to say in the House yesterday, and I ask him to confirm it now, that while there may not be a means test for children's allowances, he would favour the introduction of some form of test. Did I understand the Minister to say that yesterday?

Comment on this

What test?

Comment on this

Some form of taxation system on children's allowances. I understood the Minister to say that in the House yesterday.

Comment on this

Any such matter is the prerogative of the Minister for Finance.

Comment on this

Arising out of the Minister's reply when he said it would not be the prerogative of the Department of Social Welfare to implement such a means test, nor would they be able to do so, would he agree that he appears to be passing the buck to the Minister for Finance? I am asking for a clear indication that the Coalition Government do not intend to touch the system of children's allowances payable to the woman in the home which presently appertains.

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

That is argument, however sweetly put. Question No. 11.

Comment on this

Are we to take it that the Minister is in favour of removing the children's allowances from certain categories of people — we do not mind if he removes it from Ministers — in the middle income group? This was the suggestion which his leader made and which he says he endorses. It is a very serious statement and I am asking the Minister to clarify that.

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I have been trying to explain that each question does not afford a platform for a policy debate on the subject of the question. It would lead to absurdity or to a cross-examination.

Comment on this

This was a point the Minister made in reply to a question about the means test. He said he had no intention of introducing a means test but he was personally in favour of removing children's allowances from certain categories of people. It is only reasonable that he should explain further, because that is a very serious suggestion by the Minister and people would want to know what his view is.

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

The question is on the Order Paper about whether it is intended to introduce a means test for children's allowances and the Chair is clear that that question is answered. Other hares are being raised and are being chased. That makes a mockery of Question Time.

Comment on this

I do not accept that the question has been answered. That is a broad question asking if the Minister intends to introduce a means test for children's allowances, and the answer is, not at the present time.

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

If the Deputy was here several years ago that question would have been answered by yes or no and that would have been that.

Comment on this

Unfortunately it was not answered by yes or no.

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

That is the way it would have been answered.

Comment on this
Liam Fitzgerald Mr. L. Fitzgerald Fianna Fáil

There is ambiguity.

Comment on this

We would like to know what the Minister's policy is. Surely the point of putting down a question is to find out what the Minister's policy is.

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

I have discretion on whether I will allow any more supplementary questions. I am not allowing any more on this. Question No. 11.

Comment on this

The Minister does not know——

Comment on this
Thomas J. Fitzpatrick An Ceann Comhairle Fine Gael

We must move on to the next question.

11.

Comment on this