asked the Minister for Agriculture if he is satisfied that the actual test being used in the TB eradication scheme is sufficiently accurate and specific; the research that has been done on this problem and funds allocated for it in the last 30 years; if any other country is using or has used this particular test; the number of reactors subsequently slaughtered that turn out to be free of any symptoms of the disease; the number of clear herds that have had spontaneous outbreaks of TB; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

The tuberculin test is the most reliable test available and it has been the basis of bovine TB eradication programmes throughout the world.

In other countries research has been carried out with a view to finding an alternative reliable serological test; this research has proved fruitless. No such research has been undertaken here but all batches of tuberculin are laboratory tested to ensure that the standard of potency is maintained at the highest possible level.

Visible lesions are detected in 25 per cent of TB reactors during routine post mortem examination. That is consistent with the experience in other countries. The absence of visible lesions does not mean, of course, that the animal is free of the disease.

Spontaneous outbreaks of bovine TB do not occur. All breakdowns arise from direct or indirect transmission of the disease from an infected animal. About 6,600 herds are at present restricted because of bovine TB.

Does the Minister realise that the figure of 2 per cent given by his Department on this programme does not include the 6 per cent of reactors showing up under the 30-day test or the 8 per cent in reactor herds? Does the Minister feel that the figure of 2 per cent can be justified as a result?

First of all, in absolute terms the number of herds restricted is 6,600. Whatever way one tends to equate that in percentages, as far as we are concerned 6,600 herds are restricted. In my view, that would represent about 2.3 per cent.

Does the Minister agree that the failure of the entire TB eradication scheme, despite the large amount of money which has been invested in it over the last 30 years, is largely due to the current TB test not being used sufficiently elsewhere to justify our taking it as a measure? Also, what investigation has been done heretofore on the method of the spread of TB infection in Ireland and does the Minister stand over his statement that it is only from direct contact with other animals that the disease can be spread?

I shall take the last part of the Deputy's question first. On this whole question of the spread of TB, veterinary experience down through the years, not alone in this country but in Europe, shows that it is by lateral spread, in other words, it must be transmitted from an infected animal. Many would question that finding in the sense that there are outbreaks of this disease in isolated areas, but the information at my disposal would indicate that if the reason is traced back properly, the flare-up of a particular disease can be traced to an infected animal somewhere. On the whole question of the movement of cattle, all these regulations have been tightened up in recent years. Despite that, we have not been happy with the results of the TB eradication scheme. It is to be hoped that in the very near future, in the new conditions prevailing, we shall wipe out this disease.

(Limerick West): Is the Minister happy that adequate research and laboratory facilities are available within his Department to determine the cause of the disease?

From the laboratory point of view, the actual research work mentioned, such as on tuberculins and the like, has not been undertaken here. As the House will be well aware, we are in constant contact with the laboratories in other countries in which these tests are carried out and I am very happy with this arrangement. Our problem would be that heretofore research on the ground, particularly on the identification of the source of the disease, would need to be improved from my experience of the last number of years.

(Limerick West): Arising out of the Minister's reply——

A Cheann Comhairle——

Deputy Noel Treacy.

Arising from the Minister's earlier reply to the effect that TB in animals can be traced back to some particular location, would he like to inform the House what effects the 30-day test have on the situation regarding TB eradication?

There is no doubt that the 30-day tests have identified many reactor animals which would otherwise have gone undetected. The figures prove that. It can, however, be conclusively proved that the 30-day test on its own will not have the desired effect. In conjunction with other solutions which are being looked at at the moment, it is to be hoped that it will be successful.

Could the Minister name for us some of the other countries who use the same tuberculin test as ourselves and have done so with success in clearing TB?

In 1979 we were using tuberculin from Weybridge in England. The potency trials on that particular consignment in 1979 showed there might be other agencies and other countries that could supply us with a better product. A change was made on that occasion to Holland. It is against that background that we have been using the Dutch tuberculin since then.

Is it being used with success in other countries in the eradication of disease?

I do not want to get too technical but there are two injections, as Deputies are aware, at separate sites. There is the avian tuberculin and the bovine tuberculin. We still use the avian tuberculin, which is used in many other countries. The bovine tuberculin, which is now being used in other countries, has being used here for the last four or five years. I am satisfied that the turberculin we use is on a par with our European counterparts.

What funds have been allocated for research? Could the Minister tell the House how many people are employed in research by the Department?

That is a separate question and it is coming up afterwards.

It arises out of Deputy Doyle's question so far as the funds for research are concerned.

The financial arrangement for the research programme is that it is the overall budget for animal disease. I have no information on the number concerned because that is not in the question.

The Minister said that all outbreaks are the result of direct transmission. Herds can be free of TB for as long as ten years and all of a sudden there can be a spontaneous outbreak. Is there any research in the Department to show that the resistance to TB is lessened over a period of time and the administration of the injection may cause the disease apart from any other reason?

From a veterinary point of view the answer is no. It appears there has to be contact. That does not necessarily mean that the contact would have to be between one cow and another. It could, of course, be transmitted by other animals. It is a lateral spread and there is no veterinary advice available to me that would suggest otherwise.

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