asked the Minister for Defence the cost to the State of the provision of Army security for the various banking groups since the system was introduced.

5.

asked the Minister for Defence if charges are levied for the provision of Army escorts for security vans operated by private security firms and contractors; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 and 5 together.

Pursuant to their role of rendering aid to the civil power, the Defence Forces give assistance to the Garda Síochána in protecting movements of cash. The estimated additional costs, excluding pay, in respect of the Defence Forces of providing such assistance, which commenced in June, 1978, are as follows:— 1978 (six months), £138,000; 1979, £362,000; 1980, £557.000; 1981, £623,000; 1982, £894,000; 1983, £1,028,000; 1984 (six months), £688,000.

Since the Defence Forces act in aid of the Garda Síochána in this situation the question of levying a charge is not a matter for my Department.

Have the banking groups contributed anything to this service?

They have not.

Would it not be reasonable to expect the banking groups and security firms to make some contribution to the service? Would the Minister agree also that it is not appropriate that taxpayers be called on to fund entirely the cost of providing this protection to these private enterprises which is in addition to the service provided by the Garda?

Military escorts for the movement of cash were introduced in June 1978 following an armed robbery. The escorts were provided by the Government of the day in the interest of national security, to stop large consignments of money falling into the hands of terrorist organisations. These protective measures were not requested by the banks.

Have the Government considered requesting the banking groups to contribute some of the money involved?

I am not aware that consideration has been given to the question of such a request. As I indicated to Deputy Taylor, the escorts are provided by the Government in the interest of national security. The banks might very well say that between special levies and so on they are making to the Exchequer a contribution over and above that made by normal commercial firms.

Is it not unfair and unjust that, while this service is provided for the banks, the ordinary businessman must take the risks involved in taking cash to a night safe after he has closed his business? He, too, is paying his taxes. I have a similar question to the Minister for Justice and he will be telling us the cost to his Department of providing Garda security for the banking groups. Therefore, taking the expenditure by both Departments in this area, we are talking about a colossal amount of money.

Has the Deputy a question?

In view of the large profits being made by the banks, should they not be asked to contribute to the service?

Military escorts are provided only where there are very large sums of money in transit. The Deputy must know that it would not be possible for the State to provide protection for every citizen in the matter of the lodgement of money in the bank.

This service is provided also for many of the large security firms. Would the Minister not agree that, while the purpose of the Government in providing the protection may relate to national security, there is a substantial ancillary benefit for the banks and security firms concerned? Therefore, would he not consider at least raising with them the question of achieving, on a voluntary basis, some contribution to the increasing and substantial cost to the taxpayer of providing this protection?

The banks are not the cause, so to speak, of the escorts. The cause is the presence of terrorist criminals.

But the banks are the beneficiaries.

The State has an obligation to ensure that terrorist organisations are not funded by way of moneys got from armed robberies. That is an obligation that the State must discharge to all its citizens. It would be unfair to penalise the banks who are providing commercial services as part of the general economy but who are the unwitting victims of a terrorist situation. Security firms are the subject of military escorts but in cases where they are carrying cash to the banks.

Why is the Minister so reluctant to consider having discussions with the banks and security firms in regard to having them make some contribution towards the cost of the service?

They might agree to contribute if they were asked to do so.

In the event of Deputy Taylor's suggestion being accurate we might consider asking them and see if they would agree. Realistically speaking, this service is not provided at their request but on the basis of a Government direction to stop money falling into the hands of terrorists.

Does the Minister agree that extra money must be expended on the Garda Síochána to enable them to provide a similar service and other security services for cash in transit, at cash collecting points and other public places where cash is collected? What is the total number of Army personnel involved in this kind of security?

The number of Army personnel would vary from day to day depending on the number of escorts requested on any day.

Have the personnel involved any training for this?

The members of the Defence Forces are adequately trained for any exigencies that may arise in their duties.