asked the Minister for the Public Service the total number of full time public service employees whose average net take-home pay each week is less than (a) £100, (b) £125, and (c) £150.

The information requested is not available in my Department.

In what Department would this information be available if it is not available in the Department of the Public Service?

I do not believe that this information is available in any one Department. The Deputy is asking about different wage categories whose average net take home pay is £100, £125 or £150 per week. In order to assess that, there would have to be an examination of the wages and salaries of all public service employees, together with the benefits and allowance claimed by them for taxation purposes. Other deductions from their gross pay would also have to be taken into account to ascertain how many had net pay in the bands mentioned. Information has never been compiled on that basis and to so do would be a mammoth job which would involve a number of different agencies.

I asked the Minister a simple question. Is he not very concerned about public service pay and has he not got all possible information in relation to it? If the pay of civil servants is computerised — as it must be — can he not say how many cheques under £100, £125 and £150 are issued every week?

The calculations are done by reference to the basic pay of personnel together with the estimated pay cost of numbers in each band and category. For example, local authorities or health boards would not be included in that assessment. The figures used for comparative purposes or for carrying out an exercise as to cost are gross figures, together with numbers.

The central data processing service which is a costly State enterprise in Kilmainham can be coded in whatever way somebody wishes but, if the Minister does not have these facts, surely he can give us an idea of how many civil servants are in certain categories? I know from experience that the computer system operates by grades. The answer is probably that nobody bothered to calculate it. Could the Minister say how many people are earning less than £200 per week?

In any one week.

The House should be aware that public servants are not paid through one computer. Civil servants, the Garda, the Army, teachers and health board personnel are included in the Exchequer pay bill. Local authorities are directly involved in Exchequer costs but are not in the Exchequer pay bill. Those personnel are paid in a variety of different ways, mainly through computerised systems. From the point of view of pay calculations, pay costs are calculated on a gross basis relating to the pay band and the number of staff in each pay band. An annual figure is then given for the gross pay band cost in the public service and, unfortunately, it has never been found necessary to compile the figures on the basis of net take home pay. Therefore, it is not available.

Members on this side of the House find the Minister's explanation incredible. At the end of its calculations the computer sends out a net cheque. Surely someone at the end of the computer could count the cheques coming out which were under £100 and so on? Is the Minister suggesting that he and the Government can have a serious approach to public service pay without the information regarding the number of people earning under £100, £125 and £150. Surely, in coming to decisions on public service pay that would be basic information needed to make any sort of judgment about our approach in any year to public service pay?

What the Government and I have available is the same basic information which Deputy Haughey and his Government had available to them when he was Taoiseach. It is on that information that the Government, and presumably his Government, adopted their strategy in relation to public service pay. The figures are compiled on a gross basis. The assessment of the tax impact on the overall gross pay figure is available to the Government. It has never been found necessary to assess the net take home pay in relation to individuals. The information is not available now and the time and expense necessary to do so is neither worthwhile nor beneficial.

I do not believe it.

Could I ask the Minister whether the public service provide any allowance for personal deductions by civil servants and is that why he cannot give the net pay in an individual case, as they vary so much? One individual might be saving £10 per week and someone else might be saving £30 a week. Is that provided for in the computer system which the Civil Service operate?

As the Deputy realises, because of the operation of the PAYE system in relation to some people at certain times of the year, a greater amount of tax is deducted from their pay cheque. In addition, there are a number of what are known as "check off" facilities which allow for items other than statutory deductions to be taken from the gross pay cost to arrive at a net figure.

The net figure could contain items such as suggested by Deputy Carey. From that point of view it is not considered beneficial to the State to know in any one week the net amount which an individual earns. The important figure, which has always been used, is the gross pay figure in the band.

I will allow a final supplementary question. We have spent 30 minutes on three questions and I do not know how that would fare in a cost-benefit analysis.

The Minister has set out a public service pay policy. I am asking him how he can arrive at that without having the kind of information I am seeking.

That is repetition.

How can the Minister enter into negotiations if there is this lack of information? If a trade union representative——

That was asked by Deputy Haughey.

If the Minister is told that 5,000 or 10,000 members are paid £100 per week or less, can he deny that? He cannot do so because he has no information available to him. How can he negotiate on public service pay without having that kind of information available?

I am surprised that the Deputy does not know that not only the Government but the trade union negotiators operate on gross pay figures.

What is important is what people get into their hands.

Will the Minister give us whatever information he has, even that based on gross pay?

That information was not sought.

4.