asked the Minister for Communications when the proposed Independent Local Radio Authority will be in operation and in a position to issue licences.

8.

asked the Minister for Communications the estimated cost of establishing the Independent Local Radio Authority; the estimated annual cost; and if he has included this cost in estimates for 1985.

9.

asked the Minister for Communications if his Department have obtained premises for the Independent Local Radio Authority; the location of these premises; and the cost of rental or purchase.

10.

asked the Minister for Communications if he will estimate the total number of independent local radio stations to be established under proposed legislation.

11.

asked the Minister for Communications if he will approve the establishment of an independent local radio news and sports service to cater for independent local radio stations.

12.

asked the Minisster for Communications if his plans for local radio will allow local authorities to apply for licences to the Independent Local Radio Authority.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 together.

It would not be appropriate, in advance of legislation, to make provision in the Estimates for an independent authority but the Deputy will appreciate that this would not prevent the Authority from being established in the current year. Neither have premises been acquired. As I indicated some time ago my intention is that the Authority's headquarters should be in Cork, but it will be a matter for the Authority to acquire whatever premises they need.

As many of the Deputies' questions anticipate the legislation about to be introduced, it would be better to wait until the legislation is before the House before I answer these questions.

I should be entitled to a few supplementaries on this number of questions.

Will the Deputy deal with one first?

Could I ask the Minister the reason for the long delay in bringing forward this legislation? I would remind the Minister that he has been in that office for the last two and a half years and in that time this legislation has not been brought forward. Could I ask the background for this long delay?

As the Deputy will appreciate, there have been great difficulties about this legislation.

That is true.

One of the main difficulties is that it went before the legislation committee and took much longer than anticipated. That delayed the process by at least eight months.

In relation to the number of stations, the Minister is on record as saying that seven stations would be adequate. The Minister has had quite some mileage, newspaperwise, on this whole issue, without giving any factual statement at all. Could he indicate if the statement of the Minister of State, Deputy Nealon, as reported in the national newspapers, in relation to 30 stations would be in line with the Minister's statements that he is in favour of seven stations? Could he give some indication of the number of stations that he anticipates?

I would be happy to clarify the position for the Deputy. The Minister of State at my Department, in answer to a question from the legislative committee, said then that the frequency spectrum technically could carry about 30 stations of different orders of magnitude. A misunderstanding got abroad from that that what the Minister of State said was that there would be 30 stations. Subsequently, in order to clarify the position I said that while the frequency spectrum could carry up to 30 stations, if we went by the IBA standards in Britain the figure would be rather less.

The Minister of State put his foot in it.

There are all sorts of criteria, including the listenership criteria. For the information of the House, because of negotiations that have been more or less brought to a conclusion, the frequency spectrum available would be much larger. We will now have five national VHF networks available to us, compared with three hitherto. We will also have other regional VHF networks available to us. The technical possibilities for the number of stations will be greatly increased.

The Minister has stated that he is not in a position to include this in the 1985 Estimate because the legislation has not been passed by the Dáil and I accept that. Would this require a Supplementary Estimate for his Department and will he indicate if he has made some estimates? He has studied the matter for the last two and a half years and I feel sure that his advisers and his Department have advised him of the estimated cost to the Department of setting up stations or organising the Independent Local Radio Authority.

Of course, some exercises have been done on possible costs, but I cannot anticipate legislation yet to be enacted by this and the other House. The costs that would be involved depend very much on the outcome of that legislation and the time element.

It is proposed to locate the Independent Local Radio Authority in Cork. This is naturally welcomed by the Cork Deputies, but is a very small replacement for Ford's, Dunlop's and the other major factories which have been closed. Nevertheless since it will be located in Cork, would the Minister not think it appropriate, in view of the urgency of the legislation, that his Department could be in a position to have earmarked suitable premises for leasing or purchasing when the time comes?

The Deputy can take it that my Department will take every necessary step, and in good time, to make sure that the Independent Local Radio Authority, when set up, will be able to function pretty well immediately.

In view of his replies to Deputy Leyden, could I ask the Minister if the heads of the Bill are ready, if such heads have been before the Government and if they are agreed by the Government?

The position is that the Government have not only considered the heads of the Bill, but have almost completed consideration of the entire Bill. I hope to be in a position to make an announcement on the legislation very shortly.

Could the Minister now state to the House how many stations he envisages, following on the additional frequencies available to him?

I do not envisage any particular number of stations. That should be properly a matter for the Independent Local Radio Authority when it is set up.

Did the Minister not state very recently that in his view there should be quite a number of commercial stations and at the same time quite a number of community stations? If that be the case, how does he envisage the community stations licensing themselves?

I think that the Deputy is probably misconstruing what I said. I said that I anticipate a certain development. That is not to say that that will not take place — my guess is as good as anybody else's in this case. I imagine that we are likely to have different types of radio stations, some very local indeed and perhaps others more widespread. As the Deputy will be aware, there are a number of pirate stations in operation which are completely community stations, in that they are run by community interests and not for profit. There are other stations which are only profit-orientated. I cannot be precise and cannot anticipate how this will develop. I imagine it likely that we will have some sort of two-tier system.

I shall allow Deputy Reynolds a final supplementary and Deputy Gallagher a supplementary.

Surely the Minister is trying to mislead the House when he says that he is not in the guessing game? If heads of the Bill have been agreed by Government, surely he knows exactly the position and the guidelines which have been agreed at Government level to put to the local authorities on which they will base their assessment of the whole situation?

Just to clarify the point, whatever legislation this House may pass will not dictate necessarily the number of stations which will emerge. either at the very small community level or wider, regional or local level. It is very hard to anticipate exactly how many stations are likely to emerge.

In other words, the Government have not agreed their guidelines to give to the local Independent Local Radio Authority when it is set up.

I have already told the House that the Government have almost completed their consideration of the matter.

Has it taken two and a half years almost to complete that consideration?

Would there be any ideological problems?

Can the Minister guarantee to the House that the independence enjoyed by Radio na Gaeltachta will not be interfered with in any way when these new stations are being set up?

That is a separate question.

I call Deputy Allen.

Could I ask the Minister——

I have called Deputy Allen.

How does the Minister propose to deal with the present illegal stations when the time comes to entertain applications?

Capital punishment.

That is also a separate question. I intend to introduce two pieces of legislation simultaneously, one dealing with illegal broadcasting and one making arrangements to set up legal local radio.

A final supplementary from Deputy Leyden.

Would the Minister make a more specific statement in regard to the position of pirate radio stations? He has made many statements about these stations over the years. There is some ambiguity about his position, as he is well aware. He should put on the record of this House his views as Minister on the future of existing pirate stations, whether they will be free to apply for licences.

It is Government policy that we should phase out illegal radio stations as we make provision for legal local radio. That is what we intend to do.

Question No. 13.

Will the skull and crossbones appear on the new flag, at the top left hand corner?