asked the Minister for Health if he has any proposals to make terms of appointment of dentists more attractive in areas finding it difficult to attract dentists such as some areas in the North-Eastern Health Board region.

A special salary increase was approved for all dentists employed by health boards in late 1984. There are no further proposals on hand to make the terms of appointment of these dentists more attractive.

Is the Minister aware that we have been pursuing this matter for years? There is a backlog of children awaiting treatment. As regards the ad hoc scheme, out of the 42 dentists operating it, 39 are in Counties Louth and Meath and three are in County Monaghan. There are not any in County Cavan. Does the Minister agree that there is a serious imbalance?

The salary scales are clear-cut and were revised following an arbitration report last year. An increase of 19 per cent is recommended for dental surgeons. This is being phased in as follows: 4.75 per cent was approved last October and was backdated to 1 October 1983; 2.25 per cent on 1 December 1984 and in November-December 1987 there will be a further 12 per cent increase. That is in addition to the ordinary public service pay awards and is in an effort to make the posts more attractive. I have no doubt that with the increasing number of persons available for appointment these posts will be taken up.

Would the Minister agree that these pay scales are not adequate to attract dentists into these areas? We can see the proof of that. In parts of Cavan an adult will not receive treatment unless it is an emergency case. Does the Minister agree that it will be more costly for adults in future as a medical card is of no use to an adult in County Cavan because there are no dentists to carry out the necessary treatment under the ad hoc scheme?

The salary for a grade 1 clinical dental surgeon is £12,600 and will go up by another 6 per cent this year. For a clinical dental surgeon grade 2 the salary scale ranges from £13,000 to £17,000. For a senior clinical dental surgeon it is £16,500 to £18,800. A principal dental surgeon has a salary range from £18,000 to £19,600 and a chief dental surgeon gets £21,200. I do not maintain that the salaries are princely but, in the context of payment for work done and the other opportunities, the scale has been considerably improved.

While the salary scale may be attractive in Rathgar or Greystones, it is very hard to attract these people to Killeshandra or Belturbet. The ad hoc scheme creates a more serious problem. We have not sufficient private dentists to operate the scheme and to give the necessary treatment to people with medical cards who are in need of treatment.

A few minutes ago the Minister expressed concern about the ratio of dentists to patients in the Eastern Health Board area where it is one to 2,900. Is he aware that in the Cavan-Monaghan community care area the ratio is one to 8,000 which is the worst ratio in the country? Does he not consider that this is a crisis? The North Eastern Health Board cannot carry out their statutory responsibility to these people. Will the Minister take some action and, if not, will he ask the health board to make a public announcement to the effect that they are not in a position to discharge their statutory obligations, and not have people waiting for a service and perhaps losing teeth which could otherwise be saved?

The position is not as bad as Deputies might fear. In Cavan-Monaghan the principal dentist surgeon's post is filled. The senior dental surgeon post is filled. Seven clinical dental surgeons, grade 2, have been approved and three of those posts are filled. The vacancies were re-advertised on 23 January 1985. In Meath the principal dental surgeon's post is filled. Seven posts were approved for clinical dental surgeons and five of them were filled. There is one temporary post and one post is covered by sessions. In Louth five posts for clinical dental surgeons were filled plus a temporary post for a senior dental surgeon.

Has the Minister the figures for the ad hoc scheme?

In the North Eastern Health Board area 48,000 children are eligible and there are 16 public dental officers. The ratio is one to 3,000. That is not as good as the figure of one to 2,900 in the Eastern Health Board area. The situation should be much better.

We cannot debate this all day.

Does the Minister accept that it is not much comfort to people to tell them that there are established posts? In the Cavan-Monaghan community care area fewer than half of the posts are filled. Surely this is a crisis for people who are waiting to avail of the dental service. It is not much comfort for them to be told there are established posts which have not been filled.

I am accused every day of the week of not providing money for the health services. These jobs are there for dental surgeons.

They will not take them.

The salaries are not princely but they are reasonable. They are going up by 12 per cent by 1987. They were the subject of a special arbitration award last year and 19 per cent was conceded, 6 per cent this year. Over the next few years these posts should be filled having regard to the numbers qualifying now and getting public service contracts with superannuation and other opportunities.

Could I ask the Minister——

We are having debate and argument.

I will not repeat the question I asked about incentives to attract qualified personnel to these areas. It is all very fine for the Minister to say these posts have been approved and he has provided the money.

Will the Deputy please form some question?

Is the Minister aware that that was done years ago and the posts have not been filled as yet? Therefore, it is time for him to have a new look at the problem from two angles. One is to provide incentives to attract qualified personnel to the more remote areas in the west, north-west and north-east. If he fails in that, will the Minister farm out the public work to the private dentists?

I am not prepared to farm out public work. The work is allocated on a public basis and it will stay public.

The Minister is prepared to let the people suffer.

I cannot do any more about the salaries of the staff concerned because of the enormous impact that would have on the other professions. The knock-on effect of a 1 per cent change is £70 million.

Not if the Minister gives incentives. He knows it can be done because it is being done in certain areas.

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