asked the Minister for Justice the cost to the State of the provision of Garda security for the various banking groups since the system was introduced.

6.

asked the Minister for Justice if he intends to hold discussions with the associated banks with a view to getting them to fund the cost of providing security for the transfer of moneys.

7.

asked the Minister for Justice if charges are levied for the provision of Garda escorts for security vans operated by private security firms and contractors; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

8.

asked the Minister for Justice the number of gardaí assigned to bank security duties during 1984 and 1985; and the estimated cost to the State.

(Limerick East): A Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 8 inclusive, together.

I would refer the Deputies to the answer which I gave to a question on this subject from Deputy Bernard J. Durkan on 7 July 1983, Official Report Vol. 344, Col. 2131.

In my reply I gave the only figures available for the cost of this particular service which is borne by the State. I also indicated in that reply that this service was not sought by the banks or other financial institutions but imposed by the Government in the public interest and that many of the large cash movements included substantial sums of cash from the banks for post offices for the payment of a variety of social welfare benefits. Because of this, I do not think it would be appropriate to levy charges for the provision of Garda escorts. The answer to Deputy Allen's question, therefore, is no.

Apart from the escort of cash consignments the Garda are involved in other security duties relating to banks and financial institutions. Statistics are not maintained in a manner that would make possible the extraction of details of the number of gardaí involved or the cost to the Exchequer. In any event it would be contrary to established practice and to the public interest to disclose such setails.

Has sufficient consideration been given by the various financial institutions and State agencies to the transfer of cash from one location to another or from one agency of the Department of Social Welfare or the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to another? In my view, there is great scope for a reduction in the volume of cash in transit on any given day. Does the Minister think anything can be done to reduce the volume of cash in transit, which is a grave temption to robbers and thieves?

(Limerick East): As Deputies are aware, following a robbery of £432,984 from a security van near Newcastle West in County Limerick on 7 June 1978, when Deputy G. Collins was Minister, the Government directed that certain changes would be made. Those changes of a confidential nature, have been made but they have been in practice for so long now that any alert citizen is aware of the nature of those changes. Even though there were other subsequent robberies of cash in transit, the measures taken have been reasonably successful.

As regards the stealing of money from a post office van which led to the shooting of a garda in Drumree, the Government also examined the situation to see what could be done. Other measures were taken, some have been implemented and some are being implemented.

We are a society who use cash to a greater extent than most other western European countries. The movement to non-cash transfers and credits cards has not been as rapid here as it has been in other western European and American cities. It would ease the situation dramatically if there was a general movement towards plastic money rather than cash. Because of the high use of cash in this country and because of the payment of wages and benefits in cash, there is an obligation on the State to protect the movement of cash. We are not simply providing a service for the banks. The banks put a lot of money into security within their own buildings, but they also invest in various security firms who transmit the cash. The State has another interest and that is that large sums of money should not be allowed fall into the hands of subversive organisations. It would be wrong to see us simply as providing a service to banks. We are also there to protect the ordinary citizen so that subversive organisations do not have easy access to large sums of money.

I accept the last point the Minister made about subversive organisations but will he be making it clearer to the banking institutions that he requires them to move away from the cash based operation as quickly as possible, and that that would be the policy of the Government?

(Limerick East): Yes. I am sure Deputies like Deputy Brennan will use Question Time to do that but it would be wrong to put the emphasis and the onus on the banks. The banks provide a monetary service which the public desire. This has a lot to do with people wanting to be paid in cash, whether wages or benefits. It has a lot to do with the use of credit cards in shops and whether one has free credit in shops or one has to carry a roll of notes every time one goes out.

I am sure the Revenue Commissioners would support my suggestion.