Dún laoghaire): I move:

That Dáil Éireann authorise the broadcasting live on sound by Radio Telefís Éireann of the Budget Statement of the Minister for Finance on 29th January, 1986, and the statements of the Opposition spokesmen subject to the following conditions:—

(i) that all statements be broadcast in their entirely and that they be not interrupted by commentary, analysis or commercial breaks;

(ii) that the statements may not later be rebroadcast in whole or in part, save for the purposes of news bulletins; and

(iii) that copyright in the material be retained by Dáil Éireann.

I could not hear a word of what the Minister of State said, which should have been both audible and intelligible. There appears to be a pattern emerging from the Taoiseach and his Minister of State simply to mumble words to ensure that we cannot hear them. Just now we could not hear what the Taoiseach said and the Minister of State appears to be following his example.

(Dún Laoghaire): I was reading the motion on the Order Paper.

If it is worth saying it should be said clearly.

I should like to seek guidance in regard to this motion. There is a time-honoured tradition, and I think a Standing Order, whereby budget statements by Ministers of Finance are not allowed to be taken outside the House until the Minister had concluded. Last year that precedent was broken because television viewers could see a Minister with the Budget Statement before him while the Minister for Finance had not concluded his statement in the House. The Opposition, particularly, are at a serious disadvantage in this regard. It would appear to be a violation of the Standing Order and a long standing tradition.

I will give careful consideration to what Deputy Brady has said. If I think it appropriate I will make a statement on it before the budget tomorrow.

I will be replying to the Budget Statement tomorrow and that is why I wanted to hear what the Minister of State said in regard to this motion. If Members are waiting to hear what the Minister will be saying tomorrow, including members of the Cabinet, is it not totally out of order for other Ministers to be presenting publicly on television programmes their interpretation of the Budget Statement before it has been delivered here? If that is allowed, a tradition of the House is being undermined and totally ignored. I do not think this is a matter for further consideration: it should be determined now. Last year, two Ministers were seen by television viewers to have copies of the Budget Statement on a public affairs programme while the Minister for Finance was delivering his speech in the House. We should have clarification of that now.

(Dún Laoghaire): That did not happen last year. What happened was normal procedure in RTE.

We can have only one contribution at a time. The Minister of State has a right to reply to the debate.

(Dún Laoghaire): This is a separate issue.

The Chair feels that this is part of the discussion on the radio broadcast.

In the interest of the order of the House and the role of the House, while we are hearing the Minister for Finance reading his statement page by page, members of the Government are making statements on the budget outside the House on matters that have not been reached in the House. In that situation what is the relevance of the House? Last year, immediately after I left the House I was told that the whole Budget Statement had been cleared long before the Minister stood up in the House. We must have clarification of this because otherwise we could have Ministers tomorrow doing what they did last year. We must have agreement that there will not be statements outside on the Budget Statement.

I do not know from whom the Deputy wants clarification. The Chair has listened to what has been said and will consider it and deal with it, but he cannot be asked to give a decision in advance.

We must look at the tradition here which is time honoured. With the arrival of the broadcasting of the budget it seems irrelevant not to be allowed to take copies of the statement out of the House. A TV public affairs programme will come on at 3.45 p.m. and it will be very difficult for Opposition Members to go on that programme to give an analysis of the budget though it is being broadcast live from the Chamber. It is time to update our thinking on the procedure here in that respect.

That might be considered, but unless there is agreement the Chair will act on the basis of precedent.

On the basis of precedent, you or one of your predecessors not very long ago handed down a very stringent decision — it may have been by agreement, but it was given by the Chair — that copies of the Minister's Budget Statement would be given to certain Members of the House as a concession or privilege, and in no circumstances should copies of the statement be taken outside the House before the Minister had concluded. We are putting two aspects of that before you. Last year, two Ministers, probably without bad motives, took their copies of the statement out to RTE and they had those copies before them and were discussing them in detail before the Minister for Finance concluded his speech here. Second, is it any longer realistic to insist on copies of the statement being kept in the House until the Minister has concluded when what the Minister is saying is going out page by page to the public over the radio? There is an anomaly there and my colleagues would wish you to look at it.

Unless there is agreement or unless there is an amendment to the motion before the House, if an amendment is in order — a matter upon which I will have to check up — the Chair will proceed as the Chair thinks appropriate.

What way is that?

The Chair will not give ad hoc decisions.

(Dún Laoghaire): Could I I clarify some of the points——

Is the Deputy replying to the debate? If he is, this is the last speaker.

(Dún Laoghaire): A statement was made that Ministers took the statements out of the House and used them on television and radio. That is not accurate. What happened, as happens with the press gallery is that as the statement is being made by the Minister the page to which the Minister is referring is handed to the press gallery. The same happens in RTE. The Minister, on radio and television, uses the same facility afforded to the press.

No.

Those Ministers were not here when those comments were delivered.

(Dún Laoghaire): That is what happens on a television programme.

(Dún Laoghaire): I suggest that the Deputies check with RTE, because that is what happens. They are supplied with a page of the script as the Minister makes the announcement so there is no debate on matters that have not already been stated in the House. The Opposition are quite entitled to raise objections to any Member or Minister going outside debating an item that has not already been announced by the Minister. What were debated on television and radio programmes were matters already announced by the Minister in the course of the statement. There is nothing wrong with that. That is what happens in the press gallery and on RTE television. It is the only way to have a television programme. The RTE radio programme goes live from here so one can debate a matter announced by the Minister ten seconds after it has been announced without breaching privilege. In fairness to the Members of the House I agree that statements should not be removed from this House until the Minister has made the statement. To afford facilities to the press one must give them copies as the Minister is making the announcement.

If the studio is in Donnybrook how can the same facility be afforded as that afforded to the press gallery in the House?

(Dún Laoghaire): The officials of the Department of Finance——

On budget day, since I came into this House——

Is motion No. 4 agreed?

Will the Chair ensure that statements are not handed to Ministers outside the House because that has happened previously and Ministers have not come into the House but have left with the statements.

(Dún Laoghaire): The members of the press are handed the page.

But they are within the House.

(Dún Laoghaire): Television is in the same position as the members of the press.

(Dún Laoghaire): They are handed the pages by an official of the Department of Finance.

Is it a fact that Department of Finance officials were outside Donnybrook handling it out sheet by sheet as the Minister was reading it out here?

(Dún Laoghaire): Yes, to the best of my knowledge.

So there were officials out in the studio handing it out page by page?

The Deputy is making a speech.

I am asking a question.

It is a very funny sort of question.

The Minister of State made a statement a few moments ago that Department of Finance officials——

I gave every Deputy an opportunity to speak. I asked specifically——

I happened to be present in the studio in Setanta House——

——could the Minister conclude, and I am not——

——and I saw nobody coming in and giving it out sheet by sheet.

I did not see what happened in Donnybrook, because I was not there——

Deputy Reynolds, please resume your seat.

On a point of order I suggest that the Minister of State in reply introduced a new dimension——

That does not matter——

——into this Order. The Deputy said that officers of the Department of Finance were hawking copies of the budget around the city.

Will Deputy Fitzgerald resume his seat?

That is a complete departure——

I am putting the question.

On a point of order, we would be inclined not to accept this motion unless we get assurances on certain facts. We all realise that if the House were to reject this motion it would have very serious consequences which we do not wish.

Deputy Haughey, I deliberately——

May I put a point to the Chair?

——asked you before I called on the Minister to conclude, might I call on the Minister to conclude, and the Deputy encouraged me to ask him to conclude. I am not going to allow another speech.

I want to make a point of order. I suggest that if the Chair were to assure us that he will take into account today the procedural points which have been put forward here and perhaps have a consultation between the Chair, the Government Whip and the Opposition Whip about the procedure to be followed tomorrow, then we will have no objection.

I can assure the Deputy that I will take into consideration all points made here relating to matters over which the Chair has control but I will not consult the Whips in an informal way.

The Chair has often asked people in this House to come to his office. I am now asking the Chair to invite the two Whips to his office.

I am not going to adjudicate.

The Chair has adjudicated on this matter. Either the Chair or his predecessor very specifically laid down in this House the procedures to be followed over budget statements.

(Dún Laoghaire): I can give an assurance that the two Ministers, if the case is the same as last year, will not, as they did not last year, take copies of the budget speech out and discuss them on radio and television before the announcement is made.

I am suggesting——

I am suggesting that the Chair adjudicated on this matter and established a precedent. So it is within the Chair's jurisdiction. I am asking the Chair to invite the two Whips to come to the Chair's office for discussion and see what procedures can be agreed. It is only a procedural matter and none of us will go to the scaffold on it. We just want to have it worked out to everybody's satisfaction.

I must protect, among other things, the institution of the Chair. I will carefully consider all submissions made here today relating to matters over which I as Ceann Comhairle have control. I cannot put the Chair in a position in which he has adjudicated over something and then finds himself in a wrangle in this House between the two Whips. That would be a very foolish thing to do. It would put the Chair in an impossible position. I am sorry.

That is extraordinary.

I will rule here——

That is an extraordinary attitude. The Chair will not invite the two Whips to his office to discuss it?

No.

That is a negation of duty.

If the Whips come together themselves and come in here with something agreed I will make it an order of the House if it is proposed and I will enforce it.

In view of the situation in which the Chair finds himself I offer to come to his office later this evening, and perhaps the Government Whip will come at the same time and we will discuss the matter. We will take it upon ourselves to come to see the Chair.

I will make it clear now that I will listen to what is said but unless what is sought to be introduced is agreed upon and made an order of the House tomorrow I will proceed with my interpretation of Standing Orders and precedents as I see fit.

(Dún Laoghaire): If——

If it is made an order of the House, I will enforce the order of the House.

(Dún Laoghaire): I have no objection in discussing this matter with the Opposition Whip but I should like to repeat that the two Ministers referred to by the Opposition as having taken statements out of the House were not present last year when the Minister handed out his statement and did not leave after the statement was handed out. They had gone to RTE before the statement commenced.

They were in the studio.