asked the Minister for Education if there are any official estimates on the level of adult illiteracy in Ireland; the way in which illiteracy is defined for this purpose and the way in which the Irish figures compare with those in other EC countries.

There are no official estimates of the level of illiteracy in Ireland. It is extremely difficult to estimate the level of illiteracy in any country at any particular time. Also, illiteracy may be defined in many ways depending on the purpose for which it is being defined, and illiteracy is to a large extent a question of degree in the developed countries.

It is recognised in the EC that illiteracy is a problem of greater or lesser proportions in all member states. There is no evidence to show how the position in Ireland compares with that in the other member states.

Is the Minister aware that the National Adult Literacy Association published a survey which indicated that in their view 18 per cent of the adult population had difficulty in reading and writing and that less than 1 per cent of these were receiving any help from any quarter in remedying that situation?

I am aware that the agency to which the Deputy refers have issued many interesting and valuable documents. The figure which they have quoted comes from their own compilation. With regard to the appropriation of money to deal with adult illiteracy, the amount afforded in the Estimates for 1988 is £400,000 which is on a par with the level for last year, and that will be expended to great advantage. One is always worried about the problem of illiteracy and the ways and means of combating it at all levels of society must be constantly explored. My Department and I are very aware of this.

Since the Minister has introduced, freely and voluntarily, the question of money, will she state whether it is a fact that she has cut the grant to the National Adult Literacy Association which she praised a few seconds ago?

The grant for 1988 to the National Adult Literacy Association will be as it was in 1987. The moneys to which I referred are the moneys used in the main by the VEC in dealing with the problem of illiteracy. I am pleased we have been able to continue that funding. Deputy Bruton's own party brought in £1 million to be phased in over three years with no further commitment. I have been enabled to maintain that funding at last year's high level.

Will the Minister not agree that she has cut the allocation to the National Adult Literacy Association by £28,000?

The Deputy is referring to the National Adult Literacy Association. I am referring to the work of volunteers and tutors who deal with adult illiteracy. The moneys given this year will enable this group to carry out its very valuable work.

Why does the Minister not make her own estimate of the amount of adult illiteracy?

They lack numeracy, never mind literacy.

Will the Minister agree that the main mandate in the Programme for National Recovery under the heading of education is to assist disadvantaged groups and working-class children at all levels of education and particularly refers to adult literacy and community education and will she agree that the organ for carrying this out is the VEC? With the huge reduction in the allocation for the VEC, does the Minister think that this mandate can be adhered to particularly in relation to adult illiteracy?

I am confident this can be done because a specific part of the funding to the VECs will be apportioned to it.

I am intrigued by the Minister's reply that it is difficult to measure illiteracy since her own Department have been quoting a figure of over 400,000 people who would benefit from the pilot programme. Will the Minister frankly state that she is leaving the three year programme intact? In other words, the figure planned for this year was £500,000 and it was reduced back to £400,000. Is the programme as planned in place or not? Will the Minister further agree that even if she and her officials have difficulty defining literacy, such obstacles have not stood in the way of UNESCO and the World Health Organisation?

I was in UNESCO last week and met with many people speaking of that problem. Arising out of that we hope to consider new initiatives for dealing with it. To go back to the Deputy's earlier point about the £1 million, this amount was announced in the previous Government's national plan, and it was envisaged that there would be an all-out effort to combat illiteracy which could be encompassed within three budgets. There was no further commitment after that period. The money given last year was £400,000 and, in line with our national plan, there is a provision in the Estimates of 1988 of £400,000 for the problem of illiteracy.

How can one measure the success of education if one cannot measure the degree of illiteracy?

Deputy Bruton, it is particularly disorderly to speak in a sitting position.

The Minister has failed to reply to a serious question seriously.

The Deputy will get nowhere by shouting.