asked the Minister for Justice the plans, if any, the Garda or his Department have to deal with the spate of car thefts, some of which have led to the death of a number of innocent people; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

57.

asked the Minister for Justice if he has had consultations with the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána in relation to the renewed incidents of joy-riding in the greater Dublin area; the proposals, if any, he has to deal with this very serious problem; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 15 and 57 together.

The measures taken in recent years to deal with the problem of so-called "joy-riding" have been outlined in some detail in a number of public statements and on a number of occasions in this House. They include intensified Garda mobile patrols, the enactment of certain legislative provisions and a high level of arrest, with the subsequent charging and imprisonment of offenders. The Garda authorities have informed me that they are satisfied these measures are proving effective in that there is a marked decrease in the number of vehicles taken by so-called "joy-riders".

The number of unauthorised takings of motor vehicles in the Dublin Metropolitan Area has decreased by 22 per cent during the first nine months of this year compared with the corresponding period last year. This follows on a reduction of 16 per cent in 1986 compared with 1985 and a 20 per cent reduction in 1985 compared with 1984. I am aware, of course, that in recent months there has been a number of particularly serious and tragic incidents and I appreciate that the very substantial diminution of this problem, to which I have just referred, is no consolation to those who are bereaved or injured as a result. The measures being taken by the Garda, however, have shown good results. They are keeping the matter under constant review and further measures will be considered if there is seen to be a need for them.

First, has the Minister had any discussions with car dealers or car manufacturers in regard to the matter of adequate security on very expensive cars? Secondly, has he had any discussions with insurance companies in regard to appropriate reductions in premiums for cars with special security precautions?

I must say that I did not have any discussions with car dealers or with motor insurance bodies on this specific subject. However, I know that car dealers were made aware — indeed by myself at one stage but not in recent times — of the difficulties that arise for car owners who have paid a great deal of money for cars which are of good quality but whose car door locks are of inferior quality. I know from my own personal experience that even though this public suggestion was resented at the time — and I was let know that in no uncertain fashion through the media — nevertheless, two companies, in particular, who make a good quality popular car have now incorporated a Chubb type lock in their car doors, which makes it virtually impossible to steal them. I hope other car companies will do likewise. This is a fact that should be taken into consideration by people purchasing cars.

The Minister is advertising. Chubb time.

I am not. On the question of car insurance, this is a matter that should be considered by the car insurance companies. It was not suggested to me that I should have any discussions on this matter but I will take on board the Deputy's suggestion and see whether perhaps the insurance companies might offer some incentives to prospective policyholders who can satisfy the company that there is less likelihood of the car being stolen.

Has the Minister considered amending the legislation to bring car theft under the Larceny Act like all other thefts and take it out of the Traffic Acts offences where the charge at the moment, I understand, is not theft but simply unauthorised taking?

I shall give every consideration to the Deputy's suggestion with regard to having car theft brought in under the Larceny Act. Having discussed the matter with my advisers, I shall let the Deputy know the situation.

A Cheann Comhairle——

Deputy Barrett has a question down on this matter.

The Minister mentioned percentages. Could he give us the actual number of cars stolen in the Dublin Metropolitan Area in 1986 and 1987? Would he not agree that — from my memory — it was about 10,500 in 1986?

I shall, of course give the Deputy the figures. I gave percentages because that was the way the answer was framed. I can assure the Deputy that it was not in an effort to mislead the House or to play down a very serious situation.

I can quite appreciate that.

In 1984 the number of unauthorised takings of motor vehicles in the DMA was 15,909. In 1985 the number was 12,658. This represented a 20.43 per cent decrease. In 1986 the figure was 10,595, which represented again, as I have said already, a further decrease of 16.03 per cent over the previous year. In the nine month period from 1 January 1986 to 30 September 1986 the number was 8,271 and for the corresponding nine months period from 1 January 1987 to 30 September 1987 the figure was 6,481, which was a 21.64 per cent decrease. When giving figures I feel that Members might also like to know that the number of rammings of Garda vehicles in the nine month period of 1987 as against 1986 went down from 63 in 1986 to 36 in 1987, which shows a decrease of 42.85 per cent.

Would the Minister agree, where stolen cars are involved in collisions and where innocent people are killed, that the drivers of such cars should be charged with manslaughter? Would he also agree that many of these cars would not be stolen if there were not passengers to go along and act for reasons of bravado in the group involved in stealing the cars? If the penalty for being a passenger under such conditions were upgraded that would act as a deterrent.

The Garda inform me that they are of the opinion that recent legislative provisions have had a deterring effect on would-be offenders. The Road Traffic Act of 1984 provides for this type of offence to be tried on indictment, with a maximum penalty of five years' imprisonment and makes unauthorised interference with the mechanism of a vehicle an offence; whether committed in a public place or on private property. The Criminal Justice Act of 1984 provides for the imposition of consecutive sentences for offences committed while on bail. I could not hear the second part of the Deputy's supplementary question.

It was with regard to upgrading the penalty for being a passenger in these stolen cars — for stricter penalties.

That is something which would have to be considered. I shall give it consideration.

Is the Minister aware that in some other countries where people are killed by drivers of stolen cars there is a charge of vehicular manslaughter? Would he not feel, in view of the recent deaths in Ballyfermot and Walkinstown, that it is time to consider such a change in our law so as to make it clear to those who steal cars that the law attaches great seriousness to that crime and to the potential tragedies that can be brought about by the driving of stolen cars? To supplement Deputy Harney's question, would the Minister also consider, as a matter of urgency, greatly upgrading the penalty for the crime of travelling in stolen cars?

The suggestions made by Deputy Mitchell were among a number of suggestions made recently at a meeting which he attended, together with the other Deputies from the constituency of Dublin west. These suggestions are at present being examined by my officials. When we have had a chance to have a thorough examination made of them, I shall communicate with the Deputy.

Could I ask the Minister to undertake to the House that these matters will be considered urgently, in view of the great tragedy that occurred recently, so as to avert the possibility of a recurrence?

The Deputy can rest assured that the Minister treats as important the fact that the five Deputies from that constituency were so concerned about the matter that they arranged this meeting. He can feel assured that urgency will be accorded to the suggestions made in the course of their examination.

A Cheann Comhairle——

I was hoping to go to questions nominated for priority.

This is one of the priority questions.

Will the Deputy please be brief?

Would the Minister consider the introduction of minimum mandatory jail sentences for the crime of joyriding?

I would not like to give a reply to that question off the hip. It is a matter that can be considered and when it has been considered I will be in touch with the Deputy.

We will now move on to questions nominated for priority. Question No. 54 in the name of Deputy Mary Harney.