asked the Minister for Health the amount lost by the VHI on its insurance business (underwriting) in 1987.

As the Deputy will be aware the accounts of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board for the year ended 28 February 1987, which were laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas last year, disclosed an underwriting loss of £5.35 million in that year. To this, however, must be added a return on investments of £8.211 million which produced an overall surplus on the year's activity of £2.861 million. This increased reserves to a record £29.347 million. The current VHI accounting year does not end until 29 February 1988.

Is the Minister concerned at the huge sums of money being paid by the VHI for treatment of patients in the Blackrock Clinic and in the Mater Private Hospital? Is he concerned that these huge sums are affecting the stability of the VHI system and resulting in excessive increases in premium payments for the ordinary VHI contributor who does not avail of these exceptionally luxurious conditions in private hospitals?

While this does not arise specifically out of the question tabled, the VHI introduced schemes D and E which are to be self-sufficient in covering patients who have treatment in the Blackrock Clinic or the Mater Private Hospital.

Would the Minister not agree that, notwithstanding the provision of schemes D and E, substantial additional moneys were transferred in the past 12 months from the VHI to, for example, the Mater Hospital? In the case of the Mater the figure was £1.4 million over and above what the VHI would normally be obliged to pay. Would the Minister not agree that this is imposing grave strain on the VHI and on the totality of subscribers?

That is right.

I do not have the details of individual payments to specific hospitals. Schemes D and E were supposed to be self-sufficient to cater for patients who attend the Blackrock Clinic or the Mater Private Hospital. I know that certain procedures are covered in these hospitals for other patients and that if other patients who are in the B and C schemes attend these hospitals they will be covered to some extent by the VHI.

Surely the Minister agrees that the main reason why this year every subscriber, including myself, has to pay an increased VHI subscription of between 8.5 per cent to 9.2 per cent, or an increase three times the rate of inflation, is precisely because of the enormous heightening of activity in these two hospitals? Claims arising in respect of plans B and C require major output of money into those hospitals from the VHI, quite apart from what people pay in under plans D and E. Would the Minister agree that at the rate we are going the VHI subscription rates will have to go up by another 8 per cent or 9 per cent in 1989, to cover the huge demand by virtue of the introduction and approval by the Minister of a two-tier system of health care in this country? The tax relief will not be worth a curse at the rate the subscriptions to VHI are increasing in the current subscription year.

I would not agree with the Deputy. There was an 8 per cent——

It is happening.

I would not agree with the Deputy. An 8 per cent increase was approved with effect from 1 December 1987 and that took account of the fact that the Deputy, when he was Minister, would not allow the VHI to increase their charges in line with inflation.

Will the Minister confirm that payments in excess of £25,000 have been paid in respect of single operations carried out in the Blackrock Clinic? If he so confirms, how can he justify such massive one-off payments for services provided in that hospital? Surely this is a danger to the stability of the VHI system?

I did not attempt to justify individual fees because I am unaware of the individual fees to consultants.

The payments are not to consultants but to hospitals. The money is not going to the consultants.

Will the Minister confirm there will be no increase in VHI charges next year?

No. I will not confirm——

Is the Minister denying that these payments took place? Is he denying that these payments were made, or that he does not know about them?

I am saying I do not know the individual payments made to hospitals by the VHI. I do not have that information. That matter was not asked in the question and I do not have it.

Is the Minister saying he has no information?

I have no information about individual payments.

I am now proceeding to deal with questions nominated for priority.

On a point of order, I would like the matter of Questions Nos. 17 and 21, dealing with the need for a public education programme on AIDS, considered for the Adjournment.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

I would like to raise the subject matter of Question No. 14, which has just been short-headed, on orthodontic treatment.

I will communicate with Deputy Tom Fitzpatrick in respect of that matter.